SUB-4 MILE Training

whether you have coached a sub 4 runner or not makes no diference.

The key fact that Coach B points out is to get as much race pace reps as possible.

Coach Dellinger had his runners do 10 to 14 200s @29.5 sec with 30 sec rest 9 months of the year. For my HS girls who wish to run sub 5 we go 36 sec 200s ,about 8 is good before they lose form

If you look at my plan on the second post, that was a typical Oregon workout early season. No long runs for the 800/milers. The most i did was 60 to 80 min at a good pace.

The best in season workout that i enjoyed was 400,600,400, 200 at goal pace with equal rest. Then 10 min run with some 6x200 working down to 800 pace. That workout became easy after a few seasons and you knew you were ready to race that pace in a race.

LetsbeFrank, I'm not downplaying the achievement of sub 4 by any means. You truly believe that training has evolved in the past 30 years for mile training? Really? It has NOT.

As the poster above mentioned, you see lots of 3:59 guys every year indoors because they are running in time trials set up with pacers on over sized tracks and then go on to run 3:44-45 outdoors.

Think about what you are talking about, the internet has not evolved the training, only helped people communicate about it which is great, but at the sub 4 level doesn't really help too much because the internet cannot give a 4:10 guy the talent to suddenly go 3:58 indoors.

I don't think good training has evolved all that much, but it has certainly become more widespread. I coached myself to absolutely nothing immediately after college, then I did some research and magically got faster. Maybe I'm biased.

Yes, pacers help many. But you don't honestly think rabbits don't exist outdoors as well do you? There are many possible explanations why a 3:59 guy might run 3:44 - though I don't think it happens as frequently as you suggest. Besides, what is an over-sized indoor track other than an under-sized outdoor track? By your logic (large tracks and rabbits are the overwhelming factor) we should be seeing ridiculous times outdoors since they're on an even bigger track and most of the big invites are paced.

Yes, internet has helped communicate training. That's my point. I'm not saying a 4:10 talent can break 4. I'm saying there's probably more sub 4 talent out there and that historically we would have seen more of them if they had trained better.

Everyone is getting faster from HS up, don't you see that? Are you going to explain HS times dropping with pacers? Or is it that any half-wit coach with an internet connection can find effective training methods?

Over sized indoor facilities consistently provide better opportunities for COLLEGE athletes to run under 4.

If you are on the cusp of breaking 4 you are more likely to do it indoors than outdoors if you are a collegiate athlete.

Remember, I have been and have always been responding to the question that was posed by another poster about how college guys are running under 4 more.

I am not referring to high school.

Every single indoor season in the past few years you see a lot of new guys hit 3:59 indoors than run 4:01-2 outdoors.

This is because there are a few key (big) indoor meets on over sized tracks in ideal conditions (indoors - no rain, wind, etc).

You don't have to deal with weather, the temperatures are fairly ideal, and your pacers don't have to deal with any of that.

Above posters: PLEASE don't ruin this quality thread with petty arguing and bickering. Take that $hit elsewhere. It's not welcome here.

I'm going to get back on track here real quick, after some quick digging:

Year - #sub4 - #sub3:42.3

2004 - 07 - 18

2005 - 10 - 11

2006 - 13 - 12

2007 - 04 - 16

2008 - 12 - 22

2009 - 14 - 17

2010 - 22 - 31

2011 - 22 - 20

Make of it what you will, but for every year other than 2006 and 2011, there have been more 'sub-4' performances outdoors. For the most part by a wide margin. It will be interesting to see what happens outdoors this year with 33 sub-4's indoors. But if there are 'a lot of guys running 3:59 indoors, then 4:01/02 outdoors', then there are way more guys running over 4:00 indoors and under 4:00 outdoors to make up the difference. Not to mention (at least where I'm from) - rabbited races have been going on indoors and out since before 2004. They didn't just start happening in the last 4-5 years when significantly more have gone under.

There is a point to me continuing this path (not just for "winning" an internet argument). The thread originated with a question on how to achieve sub 4. My advice is to train better, not rely on some false hope that if you get in good shape you can hop on a 300m track with some rabbits and magically shave time from your PR. But yes, your best odds will be in an overall fast race (rabbited or otherwise) where you don't have to lead. This is true about every distance race ever. No surprises.

Onward.

If I'm reading correctly, there have been 3 sub-4 runners to post here. One says heavy focus on aerobic and race-specific speed (me), one says more strength - we can assume he means endurance (Actual sub 4 runner, page 1), and the other suggest more speed (Sub 4d it, page 2).

If you believe that any of us are telling you the truth about our status - you see two endurance suggestions and two speed suggestions. We'd need a way larger sample to verify, but we seem to be in somewhat of an agreement.

To break it down a bit, I'd say this:

Top Speed - Fast strides and short fast reps

Speed Maintenance - high volume of short reps at race-specific pace

General Endurance - Mileage

Threshold Endurance - Tempo

Finding a working combination of these is going to be key. I posted a sample week of my base which should be a good start for someone to develop their own plan. But above all, working out at the correct paces for each workout is most important. Especially on the tempo stuff, turning what could be a great 5mile workout into a 5mile race is not going to help you long term. I use a few methods (heart rate at 85-90% of HR reserve, or roughly 25% slower than current mile race pace.) but overall just feeling comfortably hard and feeling like I could to another 25-50% of the workout added on if I wanted to.

I'll get more in later. TV time.

33 college guys under 4 this indoor season, many of them doing so for the first time. I can remember, during the dark 90's, years where only 2-3 guys would go under 4 for the first time ALL YEAR and maybe ten americans would do it total.

Clearly something HAS changed and I don't think oversized tracks have very much to do with it. No oversized track is as big as an outdoor track and therefore will still have sligthtly tighter turns.

I agree that the internet, and alas, sites like this have been instrumental in the dissemination of training info. The base of quality coaching has been broadened tremendously over the last 10-15 years. When I started coaching, I had my top high school guys doing 45-55 mpw and people were shocked by the huge miles we were doing. My top boy was a 4:22 guy at that time and my top girl a 5:13 runner, my top 3200 guy was a 9:47 type. They all made the finals of the Central Coast Section of the CIF, with the boy and the girl each taking a 5th place in the mile and the 3200 guy placing 12th or 13th. Those times would place nowhere near that high anymore. Those were the days when 25 mpw seemed like a lot.....when you could get fast by doing a "special workout" or by working on your flexibility. Sure, there were coaches who knew what they were doing, but there would always be some freak talent that came out and made the state meet off 15 mpw of training and "proved" that you didn't need high mileage. Way too many talented kids back then were running way too little and as a result, the base of the performance pyramid became more and more narrow.

I remember the first time I got on a running type website, I believe it was the old USATF message board and some guy named Marshall Burt was making all kinds of noise about how you didn't need to run much to be great. However, there was some other guy named Doug Johnson that kept hollering back that mileage was king. I thought, "well, this is the same old argument that I've been hearing forever". Then, along came a site called Kick, (later taken over by coolrunning) and there was some crazy guy named after the sweedish shipbuilding capitol pitching his "summer plan". Then I found my way Marius Bakken's site and met Mr. Cabral over there. On this site, I've been able to learn from the horses mouth from guys like Jack Daniels and Renato Cannova. To pretend like there are not thousands of coaches like me out there reaping the benefits of all of this free knowledge is totally ostrich head in the sand assininery.

Anyway, back to the topic of the thread

Just saw this post on Tommy Schmitz's QFive profile (sub-4:00, Saucony) and remembered this forum. Here was his crazy fast schedule for last week (here's the link to his QFive profile where I pulled it:

http://www.qfive.com/users/269

This past weeks end result:

Monday 26

Training Run 11:40:00 AM - Westside Isla Vista - 5.00 mi @ 32:06 (6:25 pace)

Training Run 5:00:00 PM - Obern Trail - 10.50 mi @ 57:47 (5:30 pace)

Tuesday 27

Training Run 11:40:00 AM - Devereux Mesa - 5.00 mi @ 33:00 (6:36 pace)

Running Workout 5:30:00 PM - Hill Sprints - UCSB - 0.50 mi @ 2:00.00 (4:00 pace)

Wednesday 28

Training Run 1:00:00 PM - Cathedral Oaks - 5.00 mi @ 32:10 (6:26 pace)

Running Workout 6:30:00 PM - Fartlek - UCSB - 1.00 mi @ 4:00.00 (4:00 pace)

Thursday 29

Training Run 2:00:00 PM - Cathedral Oaks - 11.00 mi @ 1:05:28 (5:57 pace)

Friday 30

Training Run 12:00:00 PM - Westside Isla Vista - 5.00 mi @ 32:30 (6:30 pace)

Running Workout 5:25:00 PM - Progression Run - Obern Trail - 7.00 mi @ 36:15.00 (5:10 pace)

Saturday 1

Training Run 11:40:00 AM - Westside Isla Vista - 5.00 mi @ 32:00 (6:24 pace)

Training Run 4:10:00 PM - Cathedral Oaks - 5.50 mi @ 34:33 (6:16 pace)

Sunday 2

Training Run 2:30:00 PM - Obern Trail - 16.00 mi @ 1:27:55 (5:29 pace)

TOTALS

Running: 101 mi

Running 3.9 miles is good sub 4 mile training.

Not sure what you mean.

This was a good thread that got hijacked.

Pipedreamz- what plan did you follow last year and what were the results?

Maybe its unavoidable, but I hate the fact that there is so little follow up on these topics.BTW, what happened to the guy runnin g a hard mile every day?

bump

I'd be interested to know what progress OP has made.

3.9 miles is a sub 4 mile.

First time poster here, but I ran 3:43 quite a while ago and though I'd share how I did it. My coach was a bit old school and didn't focus on speed that much but I did run 14:02 and 1:49 as well.

We didn't race as much as I would of liked to looking back, but we always kept everything in 2 week blocks.

Sunday: 18 miles < 6:15 pace

Monday: AM 10 PM 5

Tuesday: AM 2/5 mile tempo, 4:55-5:05 pace/2 PM: 5

Wednesday 14 miles < 6:15 pace

Thursday: 10

Friday: AM 2/ 8x1k or 5xmile or 8x800 + 8x200/ 2 PM 5

Saturday: 5

Sunday: 18 miles < 6:15 pace

Monday: AM 2/12x200 up hill/ 2 PM: 8

Tuesday: 10/5

Wednesday: 2/ 8 mile tempo @ 5:15-5:20/ 2 PM 5

Thursday 10/5

Friday: 2/ 8x1k or 5xmile, longer reps/ 2 PM: 5

Saturday: 5

total: 170 miles (85 avg)

I think "less is more" is the single most important reason

for the "dark ages" (i.e. 90s). how many broke 4 min in the

70s and 80s?

yyy wrote:

I think "less is more" is the single most important reason

for the "dark ages" (i.e. 90s). how many broke 4 min in the

70s and 80s?

Agreed

OP, if you can handle 90-100 miles peer week, I would give it a shot. Look what it did for Steve Scott, Jim Ryun, and, I believe, Joe Falcon, among others. Sure, there are rarities like Spivey, Padilla, and Webb, but their raw talent is generally obvious early on. How many people can say they went from 4:15 in high school to an American record 3:47 or even a sub-3:50? Only one comes to mind.

Sagarin wrote:

Only one comes to mind.

Wild guess - Steve Scott.

yyy wrote:

I think "less is more" is the single most important reason

for the "dark ages" (i.e. 90s). how many broke 4 min in the

70s and 80s?

I think it was people misunderstanding what "less = more" means

lagat's mileage when he was focusing on the 1500 was in the 50s

now that he is racing the 5k, he does 70-75 miles per week

that is not high mileage but he is obviously quite fast

it is because he runs FAST. his mileage is all under 5:20 pace, no junk mileage. lots of steady state "aerobic threshold" type runs. coe, cram, and el g did this as well

simply running less but at the same intensity is obviously not a benefit. and "less = more" doesn't mean load up on anaerobic work with barely any mileage runs either

it means run FAST steady state runs and get the most out of your mileage