Did the majority of the field go out too fast at NCAAs? Or am I being naive?

Physically, physiologically YOU ARE WHO YOU ARE on the day of the race. You won't magically become a 30 seconds faster 10k guy just because you choose a faster pace.

You must run a pace you can handle for the ENTIRE distance.

The top 5 women were all in the lead pack IN CONTROL. Everyone else was trying to KEEP UP with them and running over their head. And so early they chasers were relatively close. Then as the smart leaders put in more effort to maintain pace, those that were over their head began to fade.

Every idiot that makes the race can get 1/2 way near the leaders, but THEN WHAT?

You are what you are, and you can't change that on the day by getting out faster.

Just when you think the geeky cross country kids are smart, you realize that they are actually more insecure than they are intelligent.

I mostly agree with what agreed writes above. The fact that he ignores is that many distance runners are overconfident and think they belong in the front. So, i think it is overconfidence rather than insecurity.

Mostly Agree wrote:

I mostly agree with what agreed writes above. The fact that he ignores is that many distance runners are overconfident and think they belong in the front. So, i think it is overconfidence rather than insecurity.

I disagree. I don't think the majority of the guys who go out way too fast are overconfident. I don't think they have any illusion that they will maintain the fast early pace or will finish in the top 10 or 50 or whatever. They are being stupid and/or insecure, and their coaches are even worse.

If you watch the video of the start the teams that went out near the back finished near the back. Check out Ohio State. You have to get out but really only the first 800 and then you settle in and watch the back and go through the mile within yourself.

I saw certain teams deliberately ease into after the gun. You can't do that. That's what you need to prepare to train for. A fast start and then regroup and settle in.

break it up wrote:

If you watch the video of the start the teams that went out near the back finished near the back. Check out Ohio State. You have to get out but really only the first 800 and then you settle in and watch the back and go through the mile within yourself.

I saw certain teams deliberately ease into after the gun. You can't do that. That's what you need to prepare to train for. A fast start and then regroup and settle in.

Those teams started and finished in the back because that's where they belong. The slowest people often will go out slowest. Doesn't mean running even splits won't work for more talented runners. They just didn't try, and most of them paid for it, as per usual.

It's painfully obvious who has raced in the meet and who is philosophizing without experience. Go back to National Gorilla Suit Day's post on page 1, he gets it.

You can't just chill in the beginning and magically pass everyone. I tried it and failed. Passed 150 runners, even-splitted, and ended up well behind the people I should have been with who went out with the pack.

outside observer wrote:

It's painfully obvious who has raced in the meet and who is philosophizing without experience. Go back to National Gorilla Suit Day's post on page 1, he gets it.

You can't just chill in the beginning and magically pass everyone. I tried it and failed. Passed 150 runners, even-splitted, and ended up well behind the people I should have been with who went out with the pack.

Yes, that is because each time you passed one of these 150 runners they magically drained you of strength and energy. It is called the magic draining effect and is well documented in the magical fairie diaries.

break it up wrote:

If you watch the video of the start the teams that went out near the back finished near the back. Check out Ohio State. You have to get out but really only the first 800 and then you settle in and watch the back and go through the mile within yourself.

I saw certain teams deliberately ease into after the gun. You can't do that. That's what you need to prepare to train for. A fast start and then regroup and settle in.

Gosh, you're right. I am sure that Ohio State ended up way back there due to their slow start and it had nothing to do with their talent and fitness level.

Then there are way too many teams that qualify for this meet. 25 teams is about right for a national championship.

Smarter than you is easy wrote:

Yes, that is because each time you passed one of these 150 runners they magically drained you of strength and energy. It is called the magic draining effect and is well documented in the magical fairie diaries.

yes, exactly. He could have run faster because there's this magic reserve of energy that is only available at the beginning of the race. (btw, i have run in the race multiple times outside observer)

The A's did not come upon a winning paradigm. What they did was to undermine the folksy wisdom of their scouts, who had brought them all the significant talent on that team. Chad Bradford and the picker at first base did not contribute very significantly at all. Tejada, Chavez, Giambi, Hudson, etc. were the guys that made that team consistently good. Beane's moneyball draft produced one player from the first round and that was it. Their challenge to conventional wisdom involved drafting college instead of high school talent. But most of the top players, the high ceiling prospects, come from the high school ranks, so they just shot themselves in the foot and have only very recently recognized that and returned to drafting high schoolers. So, challenging the 'conventional wisdom' may cause you to be much worse. Cross country races require fast starts for positioning, and then you can settle back, but you cannot challenge for team titles by trying to run even pace.

Ran there as an individual qualifier in 2007. The course was in good shape that year and the leaders went out in about 2:05 for the first 800m. I'm a pacer so I went out "slow" and found myself about 200th place by the first 1k. And that was running around 3:00. Rupp and McDougal decided to slow things down the second mile and there was a huge traffic jam. Guys were clipping each other and falling down...it is very hard to pass people in that first 4k.The tricky thing with that race is the quality of runners is so high you can't just count on moving up the whole way unless you are very talented and are mentally in it 100%. Lots of really good guys tank and some guys run great races.I ran about as expected (finished 83rd), but passing 120+ guys in the middle of that race is more exhausting compared to any other xc race I've been in. I think back and wonder if maybe by some chance I could've gone out hard in the top 50 and hung on for an All-American award...mostly likely i would've died and ended up worse in 150th+. Hard to say, but it is a fickle race.

Smarter than you is easy wrote:

outside observer wrote:

It's painfully obvious who has raced in the meet and who is philosophizing without experience. Go back to National Gorilla Suit Day's post on page 1, he gets it.

You can't just chill in the beginning and magically pass everyone. I tried it and failed. Passed 150 runners, even-splitted, and ended up well behind the people I should have been with who went out with the pack.

Yes, that is because each time you passed one of these 150 runners they magically drained you of strength and energy. It is called the magic draining effect and is well documented in the magical fairie diaries.

Smarter than you is easy wrote:

DaysThatWere wrote:

In a big field like that you have to go out hard for the first few k if your goal is to finish high

I amazes me how stupid some people are.

Your best place in the race will result from achieving your best time.

Your best time will result from running roughly even splits.

This assumes that there is room to pass for most of the course. The number of bodies that you are ahead of you early in the race is not relevant when you have room to pass. It is not the number of bodies that you pass that tires you out.

Why is this so hard for some people to understand?

Thank you. I've been in XC races with 500+ on fairly tight courses and there's more than enough room to pick off places from the back. Kids, take it from me who's done this many times (OK I've gone out too fast many more times), actually take it easy so maybe you're near the back and reel 'em'in. If you're having a good day its fan-tastic.

Rulesofficial wrote:

No watches are allowed at NCAAs, let alone Garmins.

But I think you are right that it just takes one smart coach to implement this type of change.

Maybe a top team wouldn't want to do this, but if you are a team that barely qualifies for nationals, I think it is good coaching advice to tell your pack to hang back and not get caught up in the crazy start.

A team that might otherwise finish near the bottom of the field might be able to move up to the top 20 using this strategy.

Fjortoft was wearing a very large watch - either the rule is not enforced or it doesn't exist.

So what coach is brave enough to tell his runners to run even splits?