WSOP, bad beats, great hands

JTB wrote:

Yes, yes thank you so much for answering my question with a sarcastic question of your own, truely grateful. When I referred to wanting "live" coverage I was simply hoping for a same day summary and highlight report from ESPN, especially considering the recent influx in popularity of the game of poker in the last few years. And I had NO IDEA the tournament could last 12-18 hrs a day, thank you for putting me in my place. As an intermediate poker player aspiring to bigger and better things I would ask you a few lingering questions regarding the game, but wouldn't want to you to waste time responding to a mere mortal such as myself.

Sarcastic? Putting you in your place? You have quite a vivid imagination. If you are this insecure on an internet message board with the cloak of anonymity working for you, I could only imagine the demons you must confront in your real life?

If a certain count on a daily cut is needed, the game will gone on "until." WSOP is a marathon, not a sprint.

You're welcome.

what'd you major in while receiving the classic education at the university, malmo?

worked out all the math numbers and figured you could win @ poker...........and life?

Major: Biology.

Before the math wizzes jump all over my roulette example (close enough for government work calcs: 2/38 = 5.26%), the correct calculations would be (for the bettor): (1/38 x 35)-(37/38 x -1) = (.92105 - .9737) = -.05265 negative expectation on every dollar bet.

Good night, I'll see you tomorrow. Do yourself a favor, at least memorize the damn card outs table before you ever sit down at a table. Math is your friend.

Cardouts table? care to direct me? sorry, i'm an idiot

"good enough for government calcs"

funny stuff.

thanks for the help

malmo

entertaining thread, which is often times a rarity on this board.

Malmo is correct, I was dead money the first time we played. Did some homework and got a little better, but still a lot to learn.

I have always been fascinated by numbers, so I enjoy this game a lot. I can see Malmo's point about the sad people that play this game sometimes. I was in Vegas in December and played a $2-$4 limit hold em game at one of the smaller casino's. I had a friend that was singing there so Wejo and I went to play for a few hours, these people were playing for rent money. After winning some money that first night I did not want to go back there, I prefered to go to the Belaggio and give my money to better players that were playing for fun ;)

I have to say that Lederer might be my favorite player right now. I also like Ivey, Paul Darden and Hellmuth (I was a Connors and McEnroe fan, so I have a soft spot for the brat). I also like Evelyn Ng, but not as much for her card playing.

Malmo, I am ready, teach me

BF

No name wrote:

Cardouts table? care to direct me? sorry, i'm an idiot

"good enough for government calcs"

funny stuff.

thanks for the help

I'm serious, I've really got to get some sleep. I suspect that one of the card playing knuckleheads will attempt to step in a screw up the tutorial and jump in here. Trust me on this, I can teach you the concept of the OUTS tables, how they work, and most important of all - HOW TO ACTUALLY THINK ABOUT THEM AND IMPLEMENT THEM - better than anyone (I think).

I've thought this out and have written an outline, exactly how I would teach pro poker. Most people start off at the front and teach starting hands and work the lesson, ostensibly to its logical conclusion at the river. I thought, NO there's a better way. Here's why.

THIS PARAGRAPH IS THE FOUNDATION OF POKER

In its most fundamental form, poker is all about 1) weighing KNOWN information against 2) UNKNOWN information, forming ratios, and comparing those ratios to the expected return on your money wagered. To be blunt, the pro poker player already knows what the future will bring.

SAY WHAT, MALMO? YOU CAN PREDICT THE FUTURE? Yup. I can.

You see, I don't have any idea what's going to happen on the hand I'm playing, nor do I know what will happen on the following hand either. I doesn't matter much to me, because I have the second most powerful force in the universe working for me: the theory of big numbers (the most powerful force, BTW, is compound interest). Over the long run I can predict what will happen in the future in like poker situations, and I use that information to exploit the pot and extract some hard-earned money from my opponents.

Now you're thinking, "but malmo, I don't want to think" (no sh!t you don't) "all of that math is going to ruin the fun of it." You're right, it will. That's why I have an evil plan to get you around the pesky math: I've got "Hooked on Mnemonics!" Mnemonics will take care of your math AND do your morning runs for you. See, I told you life was going to be easy.

Tomorrow's lesson: CARD OUTS and MNEMONICS.

Here's the sneak preview. MEMORIZE!

Outs..Odds2...odds1...situation......mnemonic

9.....2.......4.......flush draw.....9-2-4

8.....2.......5.......open ender.....8-2-5

7/10..2.......4.......set(FH draw)...7-2-4

7.....3.......6......................7-3-6

6.....3.......7.......two overcards..6-3-7

5.....4.......8.......one pair.......5-4-8

4.....5.......11......gut shot.......4-5-11

3.....7.......14.....................3-7-14

2.....11......22....set draw/FH draw..2-11-22

1.....23......45......dead head.....1-23-45

Outs = number of cards that will help your hand

Odds2 = odds against you drawing a favorable card with two draws (turn, river)

Odds1 = odds against you drawing a favorable card with one draw (river)

mnemonic = memorize.

dead head: "I need a miracle"

I have a complete interactive excel spreadsheet that would be useful in the tutorial, perhaps I should find someone to post it for me on their website?

Malmo, that table is similar to other things I have seen, although admittedly I have never memorized it. I use something called the four-two rule, which basically tells you to multiply the number of outs x4 to find your odds if you have two draws left (turn, river), and x2 if you have only one draw left. It is not exact, to be sure, but it is quick enough that I can actually implement it, not being a math wizard myself.

That said, I was just curious where you guys find games to play in with people of similar skill levels. I play with my friends sometimes, but I get the feeling a few of them won't be playing much longer because they keep losing money. That's their prerogative, but I want to keep playing. I don't really know how to get in other games, and its not like I live in a big city or anything (the suburbs of D.C.). Any good places to start (mostly looking for entry-level players since that's basically all I am).

Good points. The actual "slippage" on the calcs is minor and my table roundsthe numbers. For instance, the flush draw (9 outs) is actually 1.86:1 or 35.0%, which everyone knows, rounded to 2:1. Add the six matching cards to the two in your hand, and you might have as many as 15 outs. But for the tutorial purpose we'll just focus on the 9 outs.

Think of poker in terms of the Nature Channel. The big fish will always be supported by the available small fry.

Traditionally, most "semi-legal" games have been held at fraternal organizations (KofC etc) You might start looking there.

I thought you said you were gonna get some sleep......you're not young anymore malmo, you need your rest.

malmo,

While your table odds are a prerequisite for good consistent play don't flatter yourself into thinking that the game revolves around calculating pot odds vs table outs or known vs unknown information just cause thats what you'r good at.

Anyone who went to HS could calculate the odds and remember them. I play a lot of poker and have read many books on poker by the 'experts' and not one of them is worthwhile. Sure, they have great stories but nobody can teach you how to play expert poker. Its possible to make a very bad player not so bad or average but certainly not expert.

The basic problem as I see it is that odds calculations assume unconditional probabilities. The betting is the key information not the cards. Basically, what you 'put' your opponent on is contingent on how he's betting in the current hand at the particular point in the game with respect to how he's played in previous games. So many variables! You can calculate the odds that you get hit (thats just statistics) but why is your opponent betting like that? You cannot teach some one how to read opponents and this is the key.

I love playing against mechanical players, guys that put too much emphasis on the 'odds'. I'll beat them every time by stealing blinds and betting large, putting them in situations where they'll fold good hands.

Malmo-

We know that your running PR's will grab attention, and obviously being a former AR holder you can command alot of 'respect' on this board.

I wonder if the same be said about your apparent poker 'exploits'?

All I'm asking is that you be honest- in your lifetime, how does your poker bank account stand?

Diego. One has to master the basics first to be able to understand the game. What we're talking about here is the foundation of the game, which you must agree?

I'm not going to get into all the deatail of poker here, especially not endless analysis of hands and poker lore. I'm not goingt to provide as list of starting hands, either, just an explanation of why one has a starting hand inventory. What I am getting to is the foundation from which all poker decisions are made. This is what the thread is about.

Agree mostly! It is a prerequisate to playing the game well and part of the foundation of the game but as I said above (and u allude to in your latest post) it is not in itself the foundation of winning! Please continue.

Exactly, diego. I won't even go near the nuances of bluff and semi-bluff, nor mid-position plays on seat position, etc.... I believe just as soon as the discussion starts down this path, the lucid introduction to what really matter becomes compromised. Nor will I provide starting hand tables and groupings. That's what poker books are for.

I will, however, provide starting hand resources and a simplistic overview of how and why one would go about choosing a working inventory of starting hands. Remember, the concepts I'm putting forward are for limit poker. After the newbie understands those and switches to NL poker, he'll need to throw everything learned out the window and start over again--not really everything, but we are talking about two entirely different games, one of definable risk (scalable to some degree) where probability rules; the other of scalable risk where money rules. Again, my main focus will be in the three most important areas: Awareness, Card Selection/Pre-flop play, and Flop Play. That will get the beginner 90% there. I firmly believe that can be covered in three hours or less. Seat time is another issue. I'd guess it takes about 500 hours of "live fire" before one truly gets his bearings straight.

On mobile all day, dealing with battery life issues. Will get back to this later.

Here is my general outline for Poker in Three Hours that I came up with on another forum.

----------------------------------------------

What follows is an outline of how I'd teach poker--in this order:

1) OUTS...identify number of outs (cards that will improve your hand) by flop analysis...learn how to calculate odds...then construct and memorize a CARD OUTS TABLE...it's all a matter of simple mnemonics. The lesson would not continue until the student has learned and memorized their Outs Table.

2) STARTING HANDS... learn how to construct and memorize a basic starting hand inventory and pre-flop betting action....learn how to adjust for table position, action, and participation levels. It's at this point I'd introduce the No Foldem tables and discussion.

3) NOMENCLATURE... Learn the terminology to properly identify the situation and opportunity.

4) FLOP ACTION... learn and memorize a basic plan of action for the flop.

5) ANECDOTES AND APHORISMS...I've got dozens, and they're all true.

6) LAB TIME ... Turbo Texas Holdem (Wilson Software) to get some seat time without risk. Or you can sign on to 'play money' games online. Paradise Poker, Party Poker, Empire Poker are a few.

7) INTERNSHIP...Live seat time 'under fire.' Get in there and start playing and have fun. There's nothing like being in your first big pot when it somehow seems as though all the money in the world is at stake, and your heart is pounding just like it does when you toe the line in a race.

8) WUDDYDO WUDDYGOT...Poker "tells" are the stuff of legend and lore. You'll spend most of your time observing others play, make the most of it and take mental notes of the little tells that your opponents will reveal. The time to start is now. Most of the time you'll be digging dry wells, but a few nuggets will eventually surface along the way for you to exploit. Think of tells as the extra 'out.'

9) RECAP AND REVIEW...Maieutic discussion and feedback from live games.

10) PORTABILITY...use the concepts learned from Hold-em and transfer them to other poker games. Learn how limit poker differs from tournament poker.

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Some resources:

Starting Hands (Sklansky/Malmuth)

http://www.lowlimitholdem.com/StartingHands.htm

TexasHoldem-Poker.com

http://www.texasholdem-poker.com

ODDS/OUTS TABLE ...understand and know your "outs"

http://www.texasholdem-poker.com/odds.php

Guide to the Starting Hands

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/People/mummert/poker/

"No-Foldem" Tables (what happens when a computer plays all hands at the table to their conclusion)

http://poker.worldzonepro.com/aboutnofolde...demholdem2.html

Hold'Em Poker for Advanced Players by David Sklansky, Mason Malmuth

http://www.lowth.com/item/1880685221/H_hol...dvanced_players

(don't let the title scare you)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...731257?v=glance

You're welcome to add your favorites to the list.

for anecdotes ...

'poker nation' by bellion

and

'total poker' by ???

I don't understand 2/3 of this thread (the richness of the jargon alone has piqued my formerly nil interest in poker), but it is still one of the more interesting that has appeared in a while.

Malmo,

I understand your reasoning about why you quit playing poker professionally, but I think things have recently changed.

Every poker room I have been in is now smoke free (but I've only been in 3). Online play is also very profitable. Although it's tough to make as much money on a dollar/hand/table basis as a live game, the hands go faster and you can play 3-4 tables at the same time if you are fast enough. There is also software that you can buy to keep track of every hand you play and all your opponents' hands (this is extremely useful, as you can probably imagine).

Also, only at the lower limits do you have to sit with the dregs of society. For example, the times I have played at Foxwoods the NL $200 has been made up entirely of the rich or just quality card players that came to play. You need about $500 to sit down there if you want any respect, but at least it keeps the riffraff out. True, you gotta think more at these types of tables but they are still very beatable and the atmosphere and conversation is usually a lot better than the man hacking up a lung to my left or the dude shreiking about the unfairness of being dealt kings when someone else caught aces. I also find it much more enjoyable to sit with opponents that can actually PLAY. It's kinda like playing chess. It's no fun to destroy the guy who just learned how to play, but it's pure joy to take down my crafty old man (seldom happens).

XChamp -

What are your thoughts on the best tracking software package out there? Also, do you think online play can be more profitable than a live game? Thanks.

Carnivore

I've only fiddled around with Poker Tracker. It's pretty good and is updated regularly. It also has a forum to post questions on and the creator will respond within hours to email you send him. You need to build a big database of hands for it to be useful, however.

I don't know which would be more profitable to the non-world class player (World class would obviously be live games). I have a good friend that makes a living playing online about 30-40 hours a week. He makes approximately 80g a year. So, it can be done online.