Michael Wardian - 6:40 pace for 50 miles

Hopefully Michael will chime in on this thread. He posts here sometimes, but not using his real name (of course).

common wrote:

I notice you responded with an ad hominem attack, rather than addressing what I have written. Clever.

You write these long rants and then sign off with "it's just my opinion." If you're not trying to change anyone's mind, why exactly are you spraying your negativity all over a positive thread about a great guy? For the attention? I guess I'm falling in to your trap.

And yes, I can see your (unoriginal) point, although I think the opposing point, that having a famous runner to come to town is good for running, is stronger.

dean moriarty wrote:

I don't think you have much of a point. The idea behind prize money is to attract fast runners. If you don't want out-of-state ringers, don't have prize money at your race.

A race can still be successful without prize money. A good example of that is the Marine Corps Marathon, which is huge but is usually won in the 2:20 range. And Wardian runs that almost every year.

You're making my point for me. Michael Wardian lives in Arlington, VA. The Marine Corps Marathon is his local race. It doesn't even cost him $20 in gas to drive across town to get to the start line.

But, when he flies up to MDI, 750+ miles away and beats up on the locals by 16 minutes, and then flies home, I argue that it isn't doing the local running scene any long term good. People will talk about it that day, and then forget it.

I agree with what you say about reducing prize money and recruiting. I don't think race directors should offer it in moderate amounts. $1000-2000 prizes seem to bring out this kind of behavior. Not enough to attract real talent, but enough to make it worth relatively expensive travel. For $500, it doesn't make sense to travel. It costs more than you can make. Look to Heather Utrata for the calculus I'm talking about.

I would be in favor of RDs either not having prize money, or reducing it to the sub-$500 level for first and then going 10 deep to incentivise the local running community and discourage the band of gypsy runners looking for hotels, travel expenses, and prize money. Again, just my opinion of a problem I see in the sport. It's the Wal-Mart effect in road running terms.

The best response to this is for a couple of locals to say "Hey, he ain't doing that again!" and beating him by a couple of minutes the following year. If your local population cares as much as you make it sound then there should be decades of talk about how the locals took the race back from the national guy.

This is the best idea. Even if a Wardian and a couple Kenyans show up you are probably still going to reward some locals and keep them motivated.

barefoot marathoner wrote:

You write these long rants and then sign off with "it's just my opinion." If you're not trying to change anyone's mind, why exactly are you spraying your negativity all over a positive thread about a great guy? For the attention? I guess I'm falling in to your trap.

And yes, I can see your (unoriginal) point, although I think the opposing point, that having a famous runner to come to town is good for running, is stronger.

Your perception is that my posts are "negative" because you disagree. I am presenting my subjective opinion on effects that I have objectively observed. You might check the first page of the thread where I praised Mr. Wardian for a very good result on a very tough course. I also mentioned, casually, that I am not a big fan of his, but I didn't make an issue about it until a couple of posters asked me why. I've expressed throughout the thread that it is not personal. I don't know him, but by most accounts, he's a good person, family man, and a uniquely talented runner. I have praised him and his talent several times in this thread, so if you only choose to see the "negative" where I am critical of his racing choices because they are often to the detriment of local runners, I can't stop you. Also, it's not only Mr. Wardian. There are several others I can think of who are bigger offenders.

Ultimately, it's not about Mr. Wardian specifically. It's about the phenomenon of ringers in road racing in general. I think it's bad for the sport at the "local" level, whatever the context of local is. Look at the effects nationally for another example. The incredible depth and quality of the East Africans has led to them absolutely destroying Americans in Boston, New York, Chicago, and other major U.S. marathons since the mid-1980s (with the exception of Meb in NYC). Do you think we are better off as a "local" group of 2:10-2:15 guys with our one, still relatively "slow" 2:06:17 marathoner (Ryan Hall) getting trounced by a parade of non-local talent? Does that create interest in the sport? Does it create a connection with potential fans?

ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED!?

By the way, when is someone going to give me a troll rating? I'm getting a TON of action.

wowsa wrote:There is a tremendous amount of difference in the follow-on effects between when someone like Wardian or a Kenyan comes to your town and wins your local race versus when a local person wins the race. The race can be forgotten in a day or it can be remembered for years, having a significant positive impact on the local running community, as well as in the non-running community.

Really? Don't you think you're overstating your objections a bit? I've raced for 20 years (placing in age groups) and I couldn't tell you who the winner was 2 minutes, 2 days, or 2 years after the race.

Common,

On the first page of this thread, you wrote "It's only because they chase prize money that they race so much."

Several people have pointed out races that MW has done that offer NO money at all...Badwater, Marine Corps and Western States come to mind. So there goes that argument. You do realize that Badwater has an almost $1000 entry fee and that most runners pay for their entire crew and their expenses?

Your logic is flawed. Its not going to do the local running scene any good? Well, it's not going to do it any harm either. People aren't signing up for this race based upon Michael Wardian being there or not. What do you want him to do...show up and give a running clinic, sign some books, give lectures at some local middle schools, sign autographs and then run the race? Would that help it have a positive impact?

You mention no one talking about the marathon after a day...News flash, this isn't NYC or Chicago or London in that NO ONE is going to be talking about it after a day anyways!!! Sorry to burst your bubble, but I don't recall anyone the day after my last "local" race talking about who won it and I would say in 98% of the cases, this is the truth.

I don't blame MW for having talent and trying to make money on it. The guy loves to race.

Thaks for that response VF. That is precisely what happened at the specific race that I made an example of. The locals got tired of the Kenyans coming to their race, begging for hotels, travel, food, then winning in weak efforts, taking all the prize money, and moving on to the next race.

So the locals trained hard and beat them. I don't know about decades, but I can tell you that people still talk about that race three and a half years later. It had a very significant impact on the community, and not just the running community.

It does make a difference.

common wrote:

...

I am not going to insult you personally, but I think you are being unfair to Wardian.

Wardian is a really nice guy. I have run with him numerous times and even had lunch with him on occasion. I am not his good friend, by any means, but I know him enough to say that he is a well-intentioned, humble man who works very hard at running while holding down a real job.

You are forgetting that Wardian doesn't win all of his races. HE IS NOT A CHERRY PICKER. Your problem - and argument - has more to do with cherry pickers than with men like Wardian. If he screwed up your local race, that is your fault. Get some guys who can beat him. He is running in the 2:20s and 2:30s at most of his races. That is fast, but not even close to unbeatable. Get some guys to train for a 2:25 and I bet they can take him out next time. Again, he doesn't win most of his races. HE IS NOT A CHERRY PICKER.

I mainly wanted to make that last point clear...

I don't see any reason why you should insult me personally. I was asked why I hold a personal opinion, and I am explaining why. I will be the first to admit, I am operating without Michael Wardian's side of the story. However, that is not my fault, nor is it my problem, since this is my opinion. I have tried to be fair to the extent that I can, in absence of his own explanations, which, I would add, no one is entitled to.

I agree that he is not a cherry picker to the extent that others are. However, this thread isn't about them, it's about him. He enters some races where he is very competitive and often gets 2nd or 3rd. But, he also enters several races a year with prize money where he is the class of the field by minutes. I would say he did that more often five years ago than he does now, but it is still happening.

He is not unbeatable. I would also point out and admit that it takes someone like him who might be considered a "ringer" to make that dramatic, underdog win possible. But there is a reasonable limit to that scenario as well. If someone comes and sets a course record by 11 minutes, and wins by 16 minutes, it's like putting a toddler in a lion cage and hoping the kid comes out wearing a fur coat.

Register Now for the 2012 WIWO wrote:

Apostrophe Crimes wrote:

thon's what?

From what I can gather, Thon must put on a race of some sort called the "Week In and Week Out." Wardian has run this race several times, with a 2:17 best.

yes, this is exactly what i meant. god, i actually love the grammar police. its fun. yeah, i left that one out on purpose. now my posts are balanced.

Others had done so, and I was trying to politely disagree by showing you why you might be wrong.

It is now obvious that you are a troll who has some kind of personal issues with Wardian.

Your opinion is so misguided that you are not worth engaging. BUT! For the sake of objective readers, your arguments are way off base with the way that Wardian races. Your opinion suggests that Wardian should be required to research the field of each race he enters prior to running so that he can make sure that he doesn't win by too much. Also, he should not be allowed to leave Arlington, VA. Good points, I'd love to meet you for a beer.

Everyone is entitled to opinions, but you should have that entitlement revoked.

What is the tangible benefit of people "talking about" races two days after they are done? What is your metric for measuring the strength of a local scene and how it's harmed by out of town runners?

I can tell you that I used to win my local 4th of July race. No one said a thing to me about it, which was fine by me. But when that race became part of the regional circuit, drawing in ringers that would kick my ass, it became a much bigger conversation piece. Better runners make for a better race, and most runners aren't going to come close to winning a race no matter how small the field is.

I know of a local 10K race where each year they bring Wardian in and parade him around like a god. He runs the race, but isn't unofficial, isn't listed in the results, doesn't get any prize, etc. They basically just let him run bandit, give a speech, sign autographs, and show him off. This year he almost got beat by a local guy. It came down to a sprint at the finish with less than a second separating the two. Yet even though he wasn't official, that didn't stop him from taking it to the line and going through the chute like he was, thus taking away the glory and thunder from the "official" winner. So to everyone watching who didn't know Wardian was a bandit, the official winner lost. How does that seem right?

Didn't you and I go round with each other on an earlier thread where you were upset with Hal Higdon for saying the Chicago Marathon would survive without elite runners? Or am I confusing you with someone else?

If I'm not confusing you with another poster, I'll say that you're leaving a very narrow path for race directors in regards to whom they bring or don't bring to their races. Apologies if I'm thinking of someone else.

Common - If you were Wardian, what would you do? There are only so many "Local" marathons and ultras no matter where you are and those are his preferred distances. Would you really only go to big races you knew you wouldn't win? Would you skip racing most of the year except when the local races occurred even though you would rather race continually?

As far as trolling, even if you were 100% making up your "opinion" then you get 0/10. You do raise some good points, but I think Wardian's pattern is enough outside the "Cherry Picking" profile that he is a unique case. And not that it matters, but I had a friend who raced Tussey this weekend with (possibly unrealistic) aspirations of winning or at least top three. When he found out Wardian and Roes were going to be there he was excited because it meant a chance to get a real perspective of how he stacks up.

Agree wrote:

I know of a local 10K race where each year they bring Wardian in and parade him around like a god. He runs the race, but isn't unofficial, isn't listed in the results, doesn't get any prize, etc. They basically just let him run bandit, give a speech, sign autographs, and show him off. This year he almost got beat by a local guy. It came down to a sprint at the finish with less than a second separating the two. Yet even though he wasn't official, that didn't stop him from taking it to the line and going through the chute like he was, thus taking away the glory and thunder from the "official" winner. So to everyone watching who didn't know Wardian was a bandit, the official winner lost. How does that seem right?

WTF? Why isn't he "official?" Why is he a bandit? Is there a reason?

I have a hard time believing that they parade Wardian around "like a god."

Why are you posting under fake names, common?

Combover wrote:

WTF? Why isn't he "official?" Why is he a bandit? Is there a reason?

I have a hard time believing that they parade Wardian around "like a god."

Why are you posting under fake names, common?

No, I'm not "common". Just another runner dude. Who knows why he isn't official and runs bandit? That's just how it is. He's been doing it at that race for a good 4-5 years. Never entered. Just runs to show everybody up. The race calls him their "Special Friend" and puts his picture with a big bio in the entry brochure. If he want's to go through the chute, enter the race like everybody else.

And you may have a hard time believing they would parade him around, but you'd be surprised. It's pretty sickening. Autographs, handing out the awards, giving a speech, special recognition at the start of the race, etc...Whatever.

common wrote:

Ultimately, it's not about Mr. Wardian specifically. It's about the phenomenon of ringers in road racing in general. I think it's bad for the sport at the "local" level, whatever the context of local is. Look at the effects nationally for another example. The incredible depth and quality of the East Africans has led to them absolutely destroying Americans in Boston, New York, Chicago, and other major U.S. marathons since the mid-1980s (with the exception of Meb in NYC). Do you think we are better off as a "local" group of 2:10-2:15 guys with our one, still relatively "slow" 2:06:17 marathoner (Ryan Hall) getting trounced by a parade of non-local talent? Does that create interest in the sport? Does it create a connection with potential fans?

So are suggesting that RDs in Chicago, Boston and NYC ban runners because they are too fast? So just where are these poor 2:05 guys supposed to run?

As for Wardian, since you seem to have an issue with him, maybe you can provide some examples this year where he showed up in a non-competitive race and made off with a huge payoff that would have gone to a local runner.