Tell me how to run a 17:XX 5k on XX miles/week

I understand. I assumed that the other times would fit in while on my way to that 17:XX (not a math problem). I mean, you do have to pass them as you go down, right?

Flagpole wrote:

will wrote:

I went from 19 minutes for 2 miles to low 15's for 5k. Claiming people can't make that kind of a leap is unfounded and pessimistic. Qualifying it even further is just pouring cold water on someone's fire. What happened to the part about this being a place where people could pursue their dreams.

[sigh] -- Read it again brother...I didn't tell him that he COULDN'T...I told him that nothing will GUARANTEE that he can. He very well might be able to, and I never said he couldn't nor even implied it.

After I posted I figured you were going to emphasize that word. Of course I, and I think just about anyone, knows that nothing in life is GUARANTEED. I just wonder, what was your point? If you're trying to help him understand that anyone who GUARANTEES him something in a plan in blowing smoke. I'm cool with that. Trying to protect him from snake oil. Cool. The way it read to me, emphasis on personal interpretation, was that you were down on his ambitions. THAT is was I was objecting to...in which case we are on different pages. Nothing more.

The thing is that you were probably in REALLY bad shape when you went from 19 minutes for the 2 miel to low 15's for the 5K. If you're already doing 35-40mpw, are fully developed physically, and can run a 24 minute 5K, its VERY unlikely that you can drop down to 17.

He's already in good shape (though I would advise losing about 10 pounds from his 5'9" 150 pound frame) and won't improve dramatically. I say that his peak is 20 minutes for the 5K. I also don't get these extremely ambitious goals; why not just go for 23 or 24 first?

To the OP: good luck and I hope you prove me wrong and get to 17:XX eventually.

Man, I hate to be the one to have to tell you, but no amount of training, even if perfectly suited for you is going to guarantee a 17:something 5k or even 20:something for that matter.[/quote]

I went from 19 minutes for 2 miles to low 15's for 5k. Claiming people can't make that kind of a leap is unfounded and pessimistic. Qualifying it even further is just pouring cold water on someone's fire. What happened to the part about this being a place where people could pursue their dreams.[/quote]

[sigh] -- Read it again brother...I didn't tell him that he COULDN'T...I told him that nothing will GUARANTEE that he can. He very well might be able to, and I never said he couldn't nor even implied it.[/quote]

After I posted I figured you were going to emphasize that word. Of course I, and I think just about anyone, knows that nothing in life is GUARANTEED. I just wonder, what was your point? If you're trying to help him understand that anyone who GUARANTEES him something in a plan in blowing smoke. I'm cool with that. Trying to protect him from snake oil. Cool. The way it read to me, emphasis on personal interpretation, was that you were down on his ambitions. THAT is was I was objecting to...in which case we are on different pages. Nothing more.[/quote]

Well, words have meanings do they not?In that very same post, I wrote this - "Simply put, in addition to training and eating right and all that, you have to have some TALENT. Sometimes it takes a while to find the talent, and maybe you do have the talent to get to 17:something, but no amount of running will guarantee you'll get there or even close to there.Do some better training and race a bit and see."I've told him the truth...that you need to have some talent, that no amount of training will GUARANTEE that he'll get there, and that he should do some better training, race a bit and see."So, I HAVE encouraged him to do the training, did NOT tell him he could not do it, but at the same time told him the truth, and that is that he MUST have some talent to get down to 17:something. I also said that maybe he does have the talent, so I'm not down on his dreams at all.People come from a position of being basically a HORRIBLE runner to eventually doing well...I have a teenage daughter who at age 10 couldn't RUN a 400 without stopping, and now she's a high school varsity cc runner with goals to continue to improve and run in college even, so I'm all about goal setting and attaining.

will wrote:

Flagpole wrote:

[sigh] -- Read it again brother...I didn't tell him that he COULDN'T...I told him that nothing will GUARANTEE that he can. He very well might be able to, and I never said he couldn't nor even implied it.

After I posted I figured you were going to emphasize that word. Of course I, and I think just about anyone, knows that nothing in life is GUARANTEED. I just wonder, what was your point? If you're trying to help him understand that anyone who GUARANTEES him something in a plan in blowing smoke. I'm cool with that. Trying to protect him from snake oil. Cool. The way it read to me, emphasis on personal interpretation, was that you were down on his ambitions. THAT is was I was objecting to...in which case we are on different pages. Nothing more.

Fair enough. Like I said, it was just the way it READ TO ME when I saw it. It was just my interpretation.

Going with what you said, this makes me think of the talent thread that is rolling around right now. It's a complicated thing when you really think about it. And, yes, without it, chances are, he's not going to get better. But, there are things, like dedication, that are totally impossible to gauge. Some coach back in the day commented in a book he wrote that one of the guys on his team was a decent miler when he came to him (4:15 or so) and though he lacked the physical talent most of his teammate's had he compensated for it with a superior work ethic and will to succeed. In the end the guy ended up running 3:37 or something. Most folks would not have thought a 4:15 guy could get that much better. That, however, is one thing I love about coaching: the element of surprise. It's awesome when someone who seems unlikely to become really good based on the past because they just went after it with unwavering intensity. That transcends charts and tables, facts and figures and speaks things like heart that sound kind of goofy in a place like letsrun, where we are always trying to split technical hairs. Honestly, I think heart is one of the reasons Kenyans succeed. Yes, I know physiologically they do have a lot going for them. I'm not oblivious to that. Their concept of racing and dedication is not complicated and diluted by the overly scientific outlook a lot of us in America take though. I think this is one reason why it's not uncommon for Kenyans to have unthinkable improvements all the time. They don't limit themselves as readily as we do. Sometimes logic and information can have negative effects by making people too cautious and overly "realistic". There have been way too many people in running history to just do amazing, unexpected things out of thing air. I'm thinking like Billy Mills' run kind of unexpected.

Ok. Are all on the same page now? This is what I think we are saying:

It is possible for me to improve, but there's no guarantees.

I need to drop some weight.

I need to build my speed.

I have to hit intermediate time goals.

I need to develop a real base, not a BS one like I currently have, before I can build up to increased mileage that really means something.

I think I have it all for now. Like I said I'll post the time trial info and the weekly summary of key workouts when I have it.

Will, let me knock around with The Best Plan's idea for a bit before I hit you up for additional information.

Flagpole, thanks for your hard-ass opinion. I appreciate it, brother.

Everyone else, thank you as well.

RE: speedwork

keep in mind you need to learn to relax/be comfortable while running fast... and 'relax', 'smooth' should be ques while your working on speed. If at some point in the work out you have to strain , stop the workout.

After going through a period focusing on the hill sprints, start doing some speed endurance workouts... (working up to 12-16 x 100m @ ~2s slower than all out, w/ a jogging 100m rest)

Serious RR Guy wrote:

Ok. Are all on the same page now? This is what I think we are saying:

It is possible for me to improve, but there's no guarantees.

I need to drop some weight.

I need to build my speed.

I have to hit intermediate time goals.

I need to develop a real base, not a BS one like I currently have, before I can build up to increased mileage that really means something.

I think I have it all for now. Like I said I'll post the time trial info and the weekly summary of key workouts when I have it.

Will, let me knock around with The Best Plan's idea for a bit before I hit you up for additional information.

Flagpole, thanks for your hard-ass opinion. I appreciate it, brother.

Everyone else, thank you as well.

Looks like a good takeaway from all this to me.

I personally don't agree on the need to improve speed, at least as an entire subfocus by itself. With the right training speed will come. Now, it's another matter entirely if you just love doing fast speed work because you like it and you want to figure out how to run faster for 5k AND have your proverbial cake and eat it too. I had that hankering myself from time to time. All that being said, hills and consistent work over time will more than likely help you see the gains in speed you are hoping for, just not as quickly as I think you may like. If you want to run faster for 5k AND shorter distance races both, you need work across the board.

I didn't see this mentioned in the thread, so I'd like to propose one more thing to consider. Find a group of runners in your area that are a little faster than you and train with them. Sure, they'll leave you behind when they pick up the pace, but it'll serve both as motivation and as a means of helping you work on keeping your tempo up. One thing that many inexperienced runners do is inadvertantly slacken the pace during longer runs as they fatigue. It doesn't need to be every day, but once or twice a week running with others can really makes a difference. Running with a group can also help you push through barriers, both mental and physical.

Just my $0.02.

Good luck on reaching your goals. Definitely agree with taking it a step at a time; you need to be committed for the long term.

I think you've got it brother. Providing you stay injury free, if you maintain the interest and do the work, you WILL get as good as your body will allow...who knows where that will be. Of the points you mention below, I think dropping some weight and establishing a solid base so that you can do increased mileage are the two biggest things.Good luck to you.

Serious RR Guy wrote:

Ok. Are all on the same page now? This is what I think we are saying:

It is possible for me to improve, but there's no guarantees.

I need to drop some weight.

I need to build my speed.

I have to hit intermediate time goals.

I need to develop a real base, not a BS one like I currently have, before I can build up to increased mileage that really means something.

I think I have it all for now. Like I said I'll post the time trial info and the weekly summary of key workouts when I have it.

Will, let me knock around with The Best Plan's idea for a bit before I hit you up for additional information.

Flagpole, thanks for your hard-ass opinion. I appreciate it, brother.

Everyone else, thank you as well.

Thanks for all the support.

This week is really busy for me so I'm just going to rest before starting this. I need to ctfo for a bit.

Buy yourself a GPS watch with a heart rate monitor. Search LRC forums for HADD. Follow the plan.

If you follow a program like The Best Plan you will get hurt. Its not a matter of if but when and I'm willing to bet given the hills and track workouts in spikes it will be an achilles.

Read Impossible Dream's thread and look what can happen if you try to do too much too soon.

I've been doing HADD for about 4 months now and I have seen more progress during that time than I have in the past couple decades. Its a simple plan, easy to follow, and will get you results. It may not get you sub 18 but you'll see progress w/o getting hurt.

ShouldaBeenBetter wrote:

Buy yourself a GPS watch with a heart rate monitor. Search LRC forums for HADD. Follow the plan.

If you follow a program like The Best Plan you will get hurt. Its not a matter of if but when and I'm willing to bet given the hills and track workouts in spikes it will be an achilles.

Read Impossible Dream's thread and look what can happen if you try to do too much too soon.

I've been doing HADD for about 4 months now and I have seen more progress during that time than I have in the past couple decades. Its a simple plan, easy to follow, and will get you results. It may not get you sub 18 but you'll see progress w/o getting hurt.

So, you've been doing something four months and want this guy to do it even though you've no idea where it's going?

Look, you take a guy that, by his own admission, is slow and put him on a track running 200's, in spikes no less, with some sort of 1/2 baked pose running technique and expect him to stay healthy? Rule number 1...stay healthy. If you can't do that the rest is meaningless.

I've been running a long time. I'm in my 40s and competed on the HS and college levels. I wasn't a superstar but I could hold my own. I've tried practically everything in terms of training plans and all I'm saying is HADD has really helped me. Actually, I'm understating that. It's changed the way I run and my recent performances.

If PR wants to break 18 in the 5k I think the HADD plan is a great place to start and he will see results.

ShouldaBeenBetter wrote:

Look, you take a guy that, by his own admission, is slow and put him on a track running 200's, in spikes no less, with some sort of 1/2 baked pose running technique and expect him to stay healthy? Rule number 1...stay healthy. If you can't do that the rest is meaningless.

I've been running a long time. I'm in my 40s and competed on the HS and college levels. I wasn't a superstar but I could hold my own. I've tried practically everything in terms of training plans and all I'm saying is HADD has really helped me. Actually, I'm understating that. It's changed the way I run and my recent performances.

If PR wants to break 18 in the 5k I think the HADD plan is a great place to start and he will see results.

I didn't say anything about your entire first paragraph. I was just wondering why you propose someone who, as you were so quick to point out, is slow, and have him take on a program that was suggested by a coach to a pretty talented, experienced marathoner (I've read the Hadd thread too) who was making one last hurrah at the event. Especially when you haven't even completed the program once. I just don't get it. You presume I was trying to shove the thread's point down your throat. I wasn't. I was merely trying to point out the oddity of your suggestion: a runner saying "Try this. I don't know how we it'll work in the end, but, it's gotta be better than anything else anyone has said cause it's helped me make a dint in my training." Imagine actually being in this guy's shoes. What you're suggesting is not what this guy needs. Hadd was talking about squeezing the last bit out of the tube of toothpaste. This guy just took the cap off.

I'm actually better at sprints/short distance right now. No PRs to refer to because I haven't really timed any.

TBP isn't that much different from a lot of stuff that's "out there" other than the total mileage. Look at the Magill 5k puzzle I have mentioned and you should see that.

The base building the puzzle recommends looks like this:

Monday - 5K Effort Repetitions - For me these always got up into the 5k range for distance (includes run and rest distances).

Tuesday - Medium Run

Wednesday - AM Short Run* PM Medium Run - I don't do doubles the regular way. Instead I'll do a short run, rest for ~30 minutes, and then do another short-medium run.

Thursday - Technique Drills/Short Hill Sprints

Friday - AM Short Run* PM Medium Run

Saturday - Long Run with Hills - All my runs have what Florida calls hills. That's the nature of where I live and run.

Sunday - Short Run, Medium Run or Off

Monday - 5K Effort Repetitions

Tuesday - Medium Run

Wednesday - AM Short Run* PM Medium Run

Thursday - Long Hill Repeats

Friday - Short Run* PM Medium Run

Saturday - Long Run

Sunday - Short Run, Medium Run or Off

However, TBP, as recommended, has 1/2 the starting distance of what I've been doing injury free and roughly the same days of speed work (although it is more specific).

Am I missing something?

Also, for the 5k and hill repetitions I always did a 1-2 mile warm up and 1 mile cool down.

I was in this guys shoes and just recently. Training, competing, trying to reach goals and not seeing any progress. Trying Daniels, Lydiard, you name it. I used those plans for years with limited success.

HADDs program is effective irregardless of talent level. He just used one of his athletes as an example for the plan. He used the technique on all his athletes and recommended its application to all runners regardless of ability.

The fact that I haven't completed the program yet have seen positive results w/o injury is a testament to its effectiveness. Running is a journey and for the first time in years I'm on the right path and I'm confident come this time next year I will be an even better runner.

If PR tries the HADD plan I have no idea how it will end but this isn't up to you and I. It's up to PR to make his decision. He asked for advice and the reason I even spoke up is because I wished someone had told me about HADD at 36. He doesn't have to use the plan.

SBB, thanks for the input. I did ask for advice and have received a lot more than I ever expected. I appreciate all of it.

If it helps you understand my opinion of getting hurt, I do a lot of dynamic, pre-run warm ups, post-run stretching, and PT (roller, stick, massage, etc). Getting hurt is lame. I got ITBS and got rid of it doing this stuff. I also pay a lot of attention to my form and toe-offs. I always try to make sure I toe-off from my big toe. Whatever, it helps me stay focused and in good form.