PAUL TERGAT Vs. MICHAEL JOHNSON; WHAT'S YOUR VERDICT?

Tergat easily.

Running 800m is DIFFERENT than 400m, as there're new levels of fatigue and endurance involved. I'd bet Tergat could hit 1:50 or better, but do not see the same for MJ. Even if decided by the kick, I'd still go with Tergat. He'd be feeling a ton better than MJ at 700m.

if tergat coud run 25x400m in 55, he could easily run the world record in the mile. if he could even do 16x400m in 55, he would make a run at 3:43. someone said if paul tergat took it out fast, he would win. nope. tergat probably couldnt run faster than a 49-50 in the 400m, so if he took it out much faster than 52, his legs would turn to crap with the lactic acid because it is so close to his all out sprint. mj ran what, 43.18? im betting he could run at least 1:46. it sounds fast but thats two 53s which is 10 seconds off his 400m time. just to give you an idea of how much time that is, it means bob kennedy, with a 400m pr of 52 would be running 2:04 if he had the same edurance level as mj. mj wins in 1:46 mid/low with tergat coming in at 1:47 low.

Lars wrote:

I was just going to point that out - that MJ would totally dominate ANYONE in a 600m. I don't think El G would pose the slightest threat. Now, a top form MJ vs. a top form Wilson Kipketer over 600m. Now THAT'S a race. I still see MJ winning, though.

I'd comfortably bet the house on W_Kip against MJ.

MJ ran 1:47 in practice.

Uhmm wrote:

MJ ran 1:47 in practice.

If he did, then I'd change my mind. My only suspicion against that is I remember reading late in MJ's career that he never ran longer than 600m on the track in practice. That's part of my reason for viewing a difficult adjustment to the longer distances.

Is there a link that I missed?

I visualize the race like this:

Kipketer would, of course, go straight to the lead and blaze through the 400m in about 47 sec. Now, he's probably still got about a 25 second 200 in his legs if he's lucky.

MJ, at the quarter, is extremely relaxed. Do you remember watching him in the Atlanta Olympics? Remember how he would cruise through his prelim rounds in 45 point, practically jogging the last 30 meters or so? If you recall, it was remarkable...he was from another planet.

Calling that to mind, I see him perfectly capable of beating Kipketer over that last 200m. At 45 point, he seemed nowhere near fatigued.

I don't think alot of you distance guys have trained much with 800m runners. I ran the 800 for years, trained with all different types of 800 runners. I was more of a strength type, I had 48. low quarter speed and ran 1:48 off of that. That being said, my personal belief is that it is amazing HOW LITTLE strength work FAST(45.quarter) 800m runners need. Guys that Ive trained with that had that type of fast twitch needed almost no strength work to run 1:47. I know one guy for instance that ran 1:46 just after college that didnt even do runs. Alot of 400 guys cant make the jump, but I think that has to do with efficiency and fluency of running form. MJ definitely had that, I never saw him tie up once in a race. MJ could've run 1:45 with no extra work. I think the 800m record is one of the softest records on the books having said that. Put a smooth runner that can run 44 in the open quarter and have him do some strength training and we'll see sub 1:40.

speed4800 wrote:

I ran the 800 for years, trained with all different types of 800 runners. I was more of a strength type, I had 48. low quarter speed and ran 1:48 off of that. That being said, my personal belief is that it is amazing HOW LITTLE strength work FAST(45.quarter) 800m runners need. Guys that Ive trained with that had that type of fast twitch needed almost no strength work to run 1:47.

I'll take you're word for it.

My view was only speculation, but if you've seen similar situations, then that's more than good enough for me.

if you read his book, you would read that he used to do mile time trials. isnt that about 1k more than 600m?

I'm going to post this as a new thread, as well so that more people can see it. Here are two charts that compare the international success rate of 800/endurance v. 800/sprint runners:

Top 800m Runners who have backgrounds competing at 1500m or longer

Athlete (Nation)800m PR (all-time rank)1500m/mile PR (all-time rank)AccoladesWilson Kipketer (DAN)1:41.11 (1)3:42.80 (Not ranked) /3:59.7 (764)gold 1995/1997/1999 World 800m, silver 2000 OG, 2003 WIC 800mSebastian Coe (GBR)1:41.73 (2)3:29.77 (14)/3:47.33 (9)1980/84 Olympic 800m silver, 1500m gold; 1986 European 800m gold\Joaquim Cruz (BRA)1:41.77 (3)3:34.6 (148)/3:53.00 (113)1984 Olympic 800m gold, 1988 Olympic 800m silverSammy Koskei (KEN)1:42.28 (4)3:38.50 (603) Vebjørn Rodal (NOR)1:42.58 (5)3:37.57 (421)1996 Olympic 800m goldAndré Bucher (SUI)1:42.55 (7)3:38.44 (589)2001 World 800m gold*Hezekiél Sepeng (RSA)1:42.69 (11)3:38.24 (541)800m silver 1994/98 CWG, 96 Olympic Games, 1999 World ChampionshipsJapheth Kimutai (KEN)1:42.69 (12)3:34.14 (125)1998 Commonwealth 800m goldSteve Cram (GBR)1:42.88 (16)3:29.67 (12)/3:46.32 (4)1983 1500m gold, 1982/1986 Commonwealth & European 1500m gold, 800m bronzeMbulaeni Mulaudzi (RSA)1:42.89 (17)3:39.70 (Not ranked)800m gold 2002 CWG, 2004 World Indoors, bronze 2003 World ChampionshipsWilliam Yiampoy (KEN)1:43.00 (19)3:34.12 (122)4th 2001 World Championships 800mPeter Elliot (GBR)1:42.97 (18)3:32.69 (58)Gold 1990 CWG 1500m, silver 1987 WC, 1988 Olympic 800mJosé Luiz Barbosa (BRA)1:43.08 (23)3:37.04 (360)800m bronze/silver 1987/1991 World Championships Benson Koech (KEN)1:43.17 (29)3:32.09 (62)1992 World Junior 800m goldMehdi Baala (FRA)1:43.15 (27)3:28.98 (6)1500m gold 2002 European Champs., silver 2003 World Champs., bronze 2002 World CupWilliam Tanui (KEN)1:43.30 (31)3:30.58 (18)1992 Olympic 800m goldNixon Kiprotich (KEN)1:43.31 (32)3:38.76 (665)Silver 1990 CWG, 1992 Olympic 800mWilliam Chirchir (KEN)1:43.33 (33)3:29.29 (8)2002 Commonwealth 1500m silverRich Kenah (USA)1:43.38 (36)3:37.63 (434)Silver 1997 World Indoor, Outdoor 800mRick Wohlhuter (USA)1:43.5h (41)3:53.3h (127)1976 Olympic 800m bronzeRob Druppers (NED)1:43.56 (45)3:35.07 (169)1983 WC 800m silverMike Boit (KEN)1:43.57 (46)3:33.67 (89)1972 Olympic 800m bronzeAbdi Bile (SOM)1:43.60 (48)3:30.55 (19)1987 World Championship 1500m goldEarl Jones (USA)1:43.62 (49)3:36.19 (266)1984 Olympic 800m bronzeLaban Rotich (KEN)1:43.65 (51)3:29.91 (13)/3:47.65 (10)1998 World Cup 1500m gold, 1999 World Indoor 1500m silverAndrea Longo (ITA)1:43.74 (55)3:39.46 (Not ranked)1997 European Under-23 800m gold, 1998 European cup 800m gold

 

Table of top 800m runners with backrounds of competing at 400m or shorter

Athlete (Nation)800m PR (all-time rank)400m PR (all-time rank)AccoladesPatrick Ndururi (KEN)1:42.62 (10)45.71A (553)7th in 1997 World 800m Champ.Norberto Téllez (CUB)1:42.85 (12)45.27 (260)1996 Olympic 800m silverFrederick Onyancha (KEN)1:42.79 (13)45.2hA1996 Olympic 800m bronzeBilly Konchellah (KEN)1:43.06 (18)45.38A (321)1987/1991 World 800m goldPaul Ereng (KEN)1:43.16 (21)45.6 (490)1988 800m Olympic goldMark Everett (USA)1:43.20 (24)44.59 (53)9 time USA championAlberto Juanterrena (CUB)1:43.44 (33)44.26 (18)1976 Olympic 400m/800m gold

From these observations, I might conclude that a.) it's more likely to run better at 800m with an endurance background and b.) in order to run well internationally at 800m as a long sprinter, you need a minimum of mid45s 400m speed.

Enjoy.

trackhead (and ttc),

Sorry but I totally disagree with your conclusion. That table shows me nothing about running a better 800 with an endurance background, because you only showed marks from 400-1500. It shows amazing 400/800 performances from Juantarena and Everett and Erang. What does that have to do with someone like Paul Tergat?

I threw out that chart to show that a successful 400/800 runner is rare, while a successful 800m/1500m runner is much more likely to succeed; so a top 400m runner translating well to 800m is not necessarily a given.

As for the topic of this discussion -- it really depends on Johnson. Based on Tergat's 7:28 3000m, I'm sure he'd have a minimum of 1:49 speed, and probably more like 1:48. Johnsons was a speed endurance athlete -- it all dependswhat kind of energy system he is in after a 52s quarter -- mind you that's 9s slower than his 400m PR and much closer to Tergat's maimum 400m speed -- so I give it to Johnson.

As much as I enjoy discussing these things, I can't see the comparisons (and conclusions)being drawn.

No way do I automatically grant MJ a sub-1:50. Practice rumours are an old trick - unless he runs the time in a meet, he can't get credit for it. I don't think his upright running style is made for running over a minute. Back in the 80's Said Aoutia was always rumoured to run crazy workouts - I bet he and a lot of others did this to psyche people out or throw them off their routines.

Frankly, I think MJ would have a lot of trouble over 500 meters.

Same thing goes for tergat's 25x400 workout - don't forget that this was supposedly at some serious altitude (hmmm?). His mile pr is listed at 3:58 on

www.tilastopaja.net

. He has several 2k efforts of similar caliber.

My money would be on tergat in a lean in 1:51....

dmb,

that mile PR for tergat is a split prom his 3000m PR.

El G vs MJ in a 1k? Nah I think El G would win easily, even an 800. I think El G vs MJ in a 700 would be close

OK, I'm a dumbass, I shoulda looked more closely. I certainly think he's capable of faster than 3:58 - I'm just saying you can only credit people for times they've actually run.

Wouldn't it be cool if that was actually his mile PR though? That would be some serious strength....

yes, but I think that we can be assured that Tergat had some wheels to run 3:58 and 4:57 enroute to a 7:28.

No doubt he has wheels, but with only that piece of info, how do you extrapolate to a 800 m time?

1:48 to 1:49.

I looked at my Hungarian tables from RWTB (I wonder if the Ethiopians use these as Kostre was educated in Hungary...) and started to mark out Tergat's performances from the marathon down.

At the marathon he's at 1930pts (4:44/mi), at 10k he's at 1919 (4:14/mi), at 5k he's at 1900 (4:06/mi), and at 3k 1890 (4:00/mi). So if I estimate another 10-20pts drop from 3k to 1500m and 1500m to 800m and probably a 30pt drop from 800 to 400, I can estimate that he would have been capable of 3:34-3:36, 1:48-1:49 and 50-51s.