50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Charlie S., If you are not at least 80 you are not old. It was not until I was 74 that I admitted to aging. I have always felt that, if you thought you were old, then you are old. I find it exciting to have moved into a new age group. Trying but exciting!

The most important gem I have learned from the Sunday running group that I joined in 1971 is that you never give up.

no longer stressed wrote:

sounds like the lesson of the week is to stop running when something in a lower extremity breaks. this shouldn't be too hard to remember, eh?

Certainly when something breaks, yeah. But what about when something hurts? I think we're all used to running with a little discomfort here and there. What's tough is knowing when whatever ache you're feeling is something that you can run through (maybe stop and stretch or a post-run roller or ART), or whether it is something that warrants immediate cessation. It's not always easy to tell until you're too far gone. I had heard a rule of thumb where if it hurts when you start, but gets better as you run, it's OK, whereas if it doesn't subside, then you need to stop immediately and have it looked at. Not sure if that is always the case, but it seems at first glance to be reasonable advice.

Thanks Spikez for reminding us that speed comes from strength, and if you don't have the strength (which, I guess is base training for speed), don't do the speed.

Toivo1954, how our athletic ability declines with age really is a big question that has so many variables that it seems there is no simple answer. Some general trends are that our heart rates slow down, we lose lean muscle mass, and we lose range of motion and joint flexibility as we age, all of which affects our speed. What dictates the rate that those things occur is still a matter of research. Why some individuals trend slower than others we can either take as just luck of the draw, or we can gather enough experience to see if there are some underlying trends. There are a few on here that, like yourself, have been life-long runners (not me). I've seen some have been successful (however you want to define that) with lots of easy miles with short doses of high intensity; I've seen others that do low volume but high quality mileage. Is there a common denominator? I don't know.

AK-53, sounds like you got a good thing going. It can be really rewarding working with teens and young adults as they aspire to reach their goals. It's certainly what I love about teaching.

Once again, lots of good stuff. Orville, you always come across as young and vivacious, even when you are giving us a history lesson.

Keep 'em comin'!

Orville

Yes thanks for the reminder.I should have said was my fear of decrepitude.My attitude has adjusted over the last decade.This was an early 40s thing proceeded by being a couch potato or worse.I wanted to run fast before age slowed my down.Now I want to run well and enjoy my youth

Keith Bateman continues to improve at 55/56 when most are slowing dramatically. Keith has been running for a long time too. In his case he was only semi serious until recently. This meant he came into his 50s very fit, probably fairly free of injuries and still having areas where he could make improvements.

He started training with an elite squad. He dropped his weight significantly and has become a thorough professional in his approach. This has seen him make big improvements and run age group WRs which of course build his motivation and strengthen his resolve.

Steve Moneghetti is now in his late 40s and still runs good times, he ran 30.00 10k as an O/45. But Monners is slowing every year. His body now only lets him do 1/2 the kms he used to do. He struggles to get through speedwork and long runs. His motivation is probably starting to fade as most races are slower than in the past. By his 50s Monners will probably be over it, just cruising around trying to stay in one piece. He loves the club aspect of running so will probably turn out for them on race day but I doubt he will be running great O/50 times.

I think there is only so much petrol in anyone's running tank. Those of us who went for it at a young age now have that little orange warning light appearing. We have to cruise along cautiously. Those who started later or who have stopped and started might still have plenty in the tank and can still hit the accelerater.

mopak wrote:

I think there is only so much petrol in anyone's running tank. Those of us who went for it at a young age now have that little orange warning light appearing. We have to cruise along cautiously. Those who started later or who have stopped and started might still have plenty in the tank and can still hit the accelerater.

Thanks Mopak for advancing this discussion. I've heard this argument before, and there is certainly plenty of anecdotal evidence to support it; it'd be nice to see some scientific work to validate or disprove this idea, or maybe something that can pinpoint what specifically empties the fuel tank. It could be, for example, that the accumulation of injuries (treated, untreated, and undetected) are what take their toll on the body and cause a more rapid drop-off than one might otherwise expect from normal aging. A leak in the fuel tank, as it were.

Does anyone not believe that the keys to running consistently for many years is about maintaining attitude and drive, training sensibly (i.e.-training within your abilities and paying attention to your form), and staying healthy (which isn't independent of the former points and certainly involves things like nutrition and listening closely to your body)?

I think that Bateman said as much in the thread associated with his WR 10000m run:

lucKY2b wrote:

Does anyone not believe that the keys to running consistently for many years is about maintaining attitude and drive, training sensibly (i.e.-training within your abilities and paying attention to your form), and staying healthy (which isn't independent of the former points and certainly involves things like nutrition and listening closely to your body)?

I think that Bateman said as much in the thread associated with his WR 10000m run:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=3974233

Two of the three major long term injury bouts I've had post age 35 were during/after I decided to back down, run easy, smell the roses (mid 90s, early 2000s). After the second time I decided I'm not going down unless kicking and screaming. Have sort of mellowed a bit, but I kind of want to keep going with running to 60. xc skiing, hopefully never or at least until it's physically not possible anymore.

Whew, under the weekly wire.

Last week was 30-40 miles of super tapering, feeling fried from speedwork.

Caught my wife's summer cold (which I'd held at bay while running 80 miles the previous week- I blame the taper).

Raced 5k on the road 16:19 feeling no ill effects until about 60 sec after the race. Then wiped out the next few days.

Now back in the saddle.

Great topic: Mistakes.

You'd think we old-timers would be wise or something, alas no.

My errors are legion, but all are the spawn of one Mother Mistake:

Impatience. With time running out, you can see how we'd succumb to it.

Examples:

1. Too hard too early in races. I lost my patience at 1.5 miles in the 5k and ran the next 400 too hard and then really suffered. Fortunately so did the 52 yo who beat me by 4sec (Fram).

2. Too many miles too soon, while racing indoors, because life is short.

That's how I got hurt last year.

Today I looked at the splits of the unbelievable NCAA women's 5k.

Sheila Reid ran with the pack in 74-76 per lap before unfurling a 64 last 400. That's patience. I can't run that fast, but will try to learn from this example.

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Week 3

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Another nice week of posts. Great to hear what you all are up to and sharing in your missteps along the way.

This was not the week I was hoping for. Only made it to Tuesday (with a total of 19 easy miles), when my knee started hurting. I have not once had knee pain in the 6 year's that I've been running, and I can't rightly say what brought it about. I didn't do anything in particular, training-wise, that was out of the ordinary. The pain is most acute when going up and down stairs or running hard (walking causes no pain). The only thing I can think of is that once on Monday's run, I misgauged the height of a curb, so my leg wasn't at the right angle when I landed, and I felt kind of a stiff leg jolt. So I'm thinking that my knee may have suffered a sort of "whiplash" effect. At any rate, in the wake of last week's discussion, I decided to just take the rest of the week off and not risk it. It still hurts today, but not as much. I think another day or two and I should be OK. Using the opportunity to do a lot of leg massages hoping to work some kinks out.

Topic: Where do you get the most aches these days? Other than this most recent acute pain in the knee, for me, it's been the right hip and associated IT band (especially when sitting in a car for long drives). The foam roller and a tennis ball have been my main companions in dealing with those.

Hope everyone is in a better place than I am. Cheers.

wow, sorry to hear about your knee issue, lucKY2b. maybe try a hike or bike ride if you're not feeling up for running yet? also, i suggest icing it and/or using arnica or mineral oil plus heat (if interested, i can give specifics).

this was a good week of cycling for me, as i now stand at 2.5 weeks post-stress fracture. just over 250 miles on the bike (a lot for me), including a long ride of 67 miles of rolling hills along seneca and cayuga lakes with temps in the upper 90s and bright yet hazy sunshine, which of course means that the humidity was up there, too. all was going just dandy through mile 65, then it was time to ascend the hill to the cornell campus for a runners' club board meeting. well, the song doesn't go "high above cayuga's waters..." for nothing. generally this hill is not big deal to ride up, although it is always enough to get a rider's or runner's attention. this time, given the heat, the miles i had already covered, and my now-empty water bottle, it just about did me in! but i made it. if the weather and my work productivity cooperate, i might loop seneca lake (~80 miles) for my long ride this coming week, although my total mileage will be down a bit, because i'll only have six, not seven rides, since today is a rest day.

as to the weekly topic, aside from my metatarsal stress fracture (and suspected stress reaction in the other foot), my current chronic issue is my left hamstring upper insertion point. i first injured the area in a ballet class back in college, and it's been vulnerable ever since. i'm hoping this layoff from running teaches it a lesson, but i'm not terribly confident that it will. like lucKY2b, a tennis ball-like object (TP trigger ball) helps, particularly when in the car. also, my medial shins talk to me periodically, often loudly and two years ago in the form of a stress fracture, but they've been keeping to themselves for quite some months now, and i hope they remain antisocial for the foreseeable future.

Only had 32 miles last week...a couple of bike rides and a race.

Went 16:18 in a 5K yesterday. I had a 16:12 in the bag. The finish line was 120 yards away when something in my right calf popped. I almost stopped, it hurt so bad. I limped/hobbled to the finish line and darn lucky there wasn't one more step!

Coming away with the positives: I was already planning to take off a few days after the race before I begin my Fall buildup so it's good timing; It was a pretty good run with no 5K specific training; and it could have easily been so much better. Man....

My pains? My right leg. Earlier this year my hamstring was giving me all kinds of problems; and as of yesterday, my calf is now a big problem.

All the best,

Dave

Turned 51 one maonth ago. Really wanted to do well in a flat 4 miler not far from me. I ran 5:38's almost every mile. 22:39, and I still didn't win my age group. What's a guy got to do?

This is as frustrating as my 30's when I would run 15:20's for a 300 person 5k and not even get anything for my age group.

msr wrote:

Raced 5k on the road 16:19 feeling no ill effects until about 60 sec after the race. Then wiped out the next few days.

Congrats, msr. Didn't turn out how you wanted but it looks like you & Craig had a heckuva race!

Dave

Dave, This is truly a bummer. I hope your calf is not too torn up.

Sometimes they bark louder than they bite.

I often get cramps in the upper calves (gastrocnemius) when I run harder than usual, (like last week's race or some interval workouts) and they're sore for a few days. At least you got a good time, so you know the motor still works.

That will keep you going during your next build-up.

(NL)(NL)S, those bike rides sound beautiful and fun. I used to ride a lot, but in Boston it just seems too dangerous. May your shins remain closeted and may your NL exponent become odd on schedule.

L2B. It sounds like my left knee. 10 years ago to the month I hurt it somehow running in Paris on twisty gravelly paths, and it's been a companion ever since, waxing and waning. PT's are baffled and useless. It hurts to take stairs two at a time. It hurts when I sit and extend my leg straight. So I don't do those things. And I try hard not to overstride. Sometimes fast running is bad too. Sometimes it gets tweaked, like when I slipped walking on ice last year. But over the years the knee and I have come to an agreement: I don't do certain things, and it lets me run.

My week was 64 miles recovering from my cold, finishing with some solid sub7:00 pace runs. Today's 12 miler was in tights, long sleeve shirt, jacket and hat. Whatta June.

I caught the Summer cold going around last week. I scrubbed my plan to run my first track meet of the season. I didn't run at all the first three days of the week, but got in about 30mi in the last 4 days. Hopefully, I will get back on track and be ready to run the next all comers meet 10 days form now.

it looks like you & Craig had a heckuva race![/quote]

When we were masters Craig was in a different league.

Now we're closer but he's still the best.

The competition has gotten thinner, though.

At least I can make his victories meaningful.

Got through the week with no sore spots, It's usually one of my very flat aches that gives me grief lately.

Running mileage was at 21, the most since last July. Bike mileage was around 110, with both MTB and road bike miles in the mix. I've hooked up with a small group of road bikers for a Weds. night ride and these guys and gals are a pretty good fit as far as ability level. The camaraderie and intensity elements are priceless. Averaged just under 19MPH the last 2 rides with these folks.

Took part Sat. in Green Bays Bellin 10K run. Frank Shorter, Bill Rodgers, Joan Samuelson, Uta Pippig and a host of other legends were on hand. The event has become a sentimental favorite for me over the years. Our older Daughter and I chugged along for 70 min. in the company of 18,000 others.

This AM was my first footrace since PF claimed my season last July. I managed mid pack finish in a short 10k on trails in 43xx. 45 minutes after that the family went for doing the first timers portion of a MTB 5 miler. Finished that in 28:48 , no crashes. Life is good.

msr wrote:

L2B. It sounds like my left knee. 10 years ago to the month I hurt it somehow running in Paris on twisty gravelly paths, and it's been a companion ever since, waxing and waning. PT's are baffled and useless. It hurts to take stairs two at a time. It hurts when I sit and extend my leg straight. So I don't do those things. And I try hard not to overstride. Sometimes fast running is bad too. Sometimes it gets tweaked, like when I slipped walking on ice last year. But over the years the knee and I have come to an agreement: I don't do certain things, and it lets me run.

Thanks msr....I think. That's both encouraging and cautionary all in the same breath. Good news is that I was able to take stairs two at a time today. Coming down still hurts a bit after the first few stairs. I'm hopeful that it really was just a tweak and it'll clear itself up in a few days, seems to be headed that way...for now (knock on wood).

Congrats on last week's run, btw. As Dave said, it looked pretty tight with you and Fram.

racerdb, hope that you just tweaked your calf, and that it'll rub itself out soon. You've been on quite a roll.

(nl)nls, if things don't clear up soon, I might be joining the ranks of biking. It'll mean taking the bike out of the garage and giving it a rebuild, which needs to be done regardless. Sounds like you're really cranking it up!

noreaster, wish I had constructive advice. Must live in a pretty competitive area. If it's anywhere's near "msr" it'll be tough going. He's knocking on 16-minutes' door and often times he's no better than second age-group thanks to his good buddy. Move down here to the mid-south, and you could get plenty of "wins". But honestly, these days, I'm just happy racing and challenging myself. If I feel I've trained well and raced my best and the time shows it, that's my reward.

"old guy II" hope you're back up to speed and your training gets back on target.

Bushman, how's it feel to run hard again? Tough starting the season on a trail run. That must've been a real fun time up at Bellin. Even if you were just taking it easy.

Keep 'em rolling!

Took just 2 weeks off, but am starting back fairly easy, though I'm already up to 19 miles for the 2nd week back. Some of the aches are gone from before...so far. One of my problems will always seemingly be my feet. The other injuries mostly seam to come and go.

noreaster- you must be doing better in the division placing, if you are trying to figure out what will get you to that win.

L2B- good luck with your knee.

rdb-good run even with one leg at the end. Hope that ends up being just a bad cramp.

And of course a good run for msr as well.

Took just 2 weeks off, but am starting back fairly easy, though I'm already up to 19 miles for the 2nd week back. Some of the aches are gone from before...so far. One of my problems will always seemingly be my feet. The other injuries mostly seam to come and go.

noreaster- you must be doing better in the division placing, if you are trying to figure out what will get you to that win.

L2B- good luck with your knee.

rdb-good run even with one leg at the end. Hope that ends up being just a bad cramp.

And of course a good run for msr as well.