Famed Millrose Games May Leaven Garden

Sorry for my 2nd post on this, I should have read all Wejo's anti-Armory posts first, but I don't think your board is designed to start spreading bad information about a not-for-profit that exists almost entirely to provide a place for NYC kids to run track and field and improve their lives. You should definitely do your homework on the history of the Armory and the Armory Foundation before you start a witch hunt on the guys who make it all possible, aimlessly dig into their financials and post salaries of pretty well-known and selfless individuals on this board.

kmaclam wrote:

Moving the Millrose games to the armory will be like any other meet at the armory??? I don't agree & IF this was true, how is that a bad thing? And no, I didn't see Mr. Schmertz's quote, but am curious

You didn't see a quote because none was taken.

Pete Schuder wrote:

Slow times are not interesting to the general public because our sport emphasizes record performances instead of winning. The small track in the Garden can't overcome exciting races when slow times are the norm.

I understand what you are saying about times, but don't believe the reason Millrose is not more successful is the slow times being run. My counter argument would be, if the key to the public was just about putting on a meet with fast-times why did the Tyson meet in Arkansas drop off the radar and quit being a pro meet?

If Millrose can not be put on in the Garden successfully it says something about the state of our sport, not something about how fast our tracks are. There are tons of fast tracks and very few meets people want to watch.

Maybe the death of Millrose means it is no longer possible in the US to put on a track meet in a major arena any more.

I however am not yet willing to raise the white flag and admit that yet.

I'm a dreamer. And all I know is the maximum potential for a meet in the Garden is much greater than a meet in the Armory. The day no one in America can figure out how to get more than 10,000 fans to a track meet in America is a sad one. I don't think we're there yet, but apparently some people in New York do.

I don't want our sport to be relegated to performing before tiny audiences with internet streaming or Universal Sports coverage if we're lucky, instead of big arenas and ESPN coverage.

Bacon Man wrote:

Sorry for my 2nd post on this, I should have read all Wejo's anti-Armory posts first, but I don't think your board is designed to start spreading bad information about a not-for-profit that exists almost entirely to provide a place for NYC kids to run track and field and improve their lives. You should definitely do your homework on the history of the Armory and the Armory Foundation before you start a witch hunt on the guys who make it all possible, aimlessly dig into their financials and post salaries of pretty well-known and selfless individuals on this board.

It's not a witch hunt at all. I looked to see if I could determine what they paid for the naming rights to Millrose because I'd like to believe if it was put out to bid someone would pay a substantial amount for the name and history of the Millrose Games. I couldn't find that, but I saw a few things of interest that others would be interested in so I pointed them out. Can you tell me how that is a witch hunt?

However, what bothers me most is you said I was "spreading bad information." I reported factual data that is reported by law by all non-profits. How is factual information from the Armory, "bad-information?" There is a reason non-profits have to report all the information the do. It's considered in the public interest.

I am with Wejo on this. Moving it to the armory totally changes it.

I've run at the armory, I've ran at the Garden. It is amazing to run there. Telling people I've run there is also pretty cool. Definitely gets a response.

Millrose at the Garden was also an event that my family, my high school friends (on the track team), and I would look forward to. I can't imagine that that would be the same at the armory, where those people go on Winter weekends anyway.

Armory takes away the allure. Also takes away the tradition. I know it's been fading over the years but I still don't back the move.

If they could fill a major arena with a real track maybe it would be a better scene. They cannot do that in this day and age. This is the time when the tracks are no longer 10-11 laps/mile. This is when there are standard 200m tracks. MG did not follow this. I don't know if it was possible in the armory by raising the track height or what, but going to this meet and running slow has gotten less and less interesting as kids grew up and ran on better and better tracks. Also, track getting less coverage should be slightly more focused on faster running as to keep some interest in the sport.

wejo wrote:

Bacon Man wrote:

Sorry for my 2nd post on this, I should have read all Wejo's anti-Armory posts first, but I don't think your board is designed to start spreading bad information about a not-for-profit that exists almost entirely to provide a place for NYC kids to run track and field and improve their lives. You should definitely do your homework on the history of the Armory and the Armory Foundation before you start a witch hunt on the guys who make it all possible, aimlessly dig into their financials and post salaries of pretty well-known and selfless individuals on this board.

Can you tell me how that is a witch hunt?

However, what bothers me most is you said I was "spreading bad information." I reported factual data that is reported by law by all non-profits. How is factual information from the Armory, "bad-information?"

Please don't act indignant just because you posted some factual information. You are insinuating over the course of several posts that there is someting innapproriate going on. Everyone here is expressing a healthy opinion about the move. You are posting people's salaries out of context, do your homework, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Wetmore is a failure. I saw this comimg. I screamed loud and long. No one listened. I hate being right. We have people at USATF that do things by favoritsm and not good business sense.. None of the major meets in the world are run by guys from another town. Wetmore was in Boston. This meet was in NYC. Besides that he already had enough meets on his plate. What the hell is Wemore, Superman. He is an agent with like 100 athletes on his roster. Which is also a conflict oif interest. And the USATF gave this meet to him.

wuzthere wrote:

Wetmore is a failure. I saw this comimg. I screamed loud and long. No one listened. I hate being right. We have people at USATF that do things by favoritsm and not good business sense.. None of the major meets in the world are run by guys from another town. Wetmore was in Boston. This meet was in NYC. Besides that he already had enough meets on his plate. What the hell is Wemore, Superman. He is an agent with like 100 athletes on his roster. Which is also a conflict oif interest. And the USATF gave this meet to him.

USATF has done all the meet management and promotion of Millrose for the last two editions. To counter your point, FastTrack is in Birmingham, and they fill up the Crystal Palace, Ostrava is run by a Slovakian (based in Slovakia), and Rieti's meeting director is in Monaco more than anywhere else.

Dear Letsrun,

YUSOMAD?

Someone said earlier that the Millrose Games would turn into a "High School relay fest" if moved to the armory. No doubt about it. Also, nobody will come to watch an all day meet on Saturday. I think it was key to the Millrose Games and should be key to any other meet that cares about spectators to put only interesting events in a time frame that people would actually stand to watch. Maybe the meet should be shorter than two hours. Maybe not. Who watches a 6 hour long hockey game? Last time I checked a dismal 9000 spectators at the Madison Square Garden was over twice the 4000 at the Armory. Pro indoor track in the US can't survive with just two or three meets (Boston, Millrose). If the concern is that athletes stay in Europe because traveling across the ocean several times for one or two meets is a waste of time (a problem that the diamond league has too), there need to be more meets on subsequent weekends. Wooden indoor tracks <200m FTW.

I agree with you, but was pointing out how our sport shoots itself in the foot. The larger tracks and the NCAA qualifying methods have forced a large group of quality athletes to look elsewhere for competition. I saw it first hand when we had one of the few 200 meter banked tracks in the country and had teams from all over come to our track in Boston to get qualifying times. As more and more large tracks appeared and indexing changed to help oversized tracks, other locations became hotbeds for teams to go and compete.

The Garden lost out. They also lost out when the pros took over and college athletes no longer were the primary source of outstanding performances. Millrose drew 18,000 plus when I ran there and the vast majority of fans were connected to the college athletes competing there, sprinkled in with a few foreign athletes to make for good competition. We used to sell over 200 tickets to our alumni within a week and I am sure other local colleges such as Villanova, Manhattan, St Johns, etc. did a lot better. There was more interest in high school competition back then, as well, that also drew lots of local fans.

None of that is there anymore, in my opinion. Having only half the arena filled is awful. I remember when that started happening at the New York K of C meet when it moved to Long Island and when the Boston Garden Meets started to drop in attendance. The same happened to the Baltimore meet.

It was not fun running in front of an empty house.

Howard Schmertz did an amazing job of keeping the Millrose Games going while all the others disappeared from the landscape. Unfortunately, our sport no longer attracts enough fans to support such a great venue as the Garden.

It is sad that today's young athletes can't experience competing in front of a "home crowd" of 18,000 fans screaming their name as they fight for a win.

Indoor track has grown as more colleges build huge indoor facilities, but the magic of competing in Madison Square Garden seems to be coming to an end.

I'm not sure why it is that people are overlooking the fact that the elite middle distance runners do NOT want to run at Madison Square Garden, and I'm not sure why we're still sort of pretending that they do.

I might disagree with the masses on this one. I think the Millrose games with it's 11 laps to a mile and super slow times might do well to move to the Armory.

The History is always there regardless.

The Answer My Friend wrote:

I'm not sure why it is that people are overlooking the fact that the elite middle distance runners do NOT want to run at Madison Square Garden, and I'm not sure why we're still sort of pretending that they do.

Amen. I went to Millrose three years ago-- it was something I'd been looking forward to for most of my life. It was a colossal disappointment. The only decent race was Willis vs. Lagat, which was a sit for 9.5 laps and kick affair. Other highlights included ridiculous techno music during the races, a 600-meter dash with 3 runners, and a bunch of high school relays. I watched all of this from the upper reaches of a basketball arena. Not exactly a great track and field experience.

Completely agree colleges were sending B teams, no name semi pros, dropped sticks galore in 4x4, filled smaller races. I remember hearing back on the 100th anniversary that it may have been the last one. The Armory has kept it alive. It's a fact that Madison Square Garden has been trying to get rid of it for awhile now.

USATF says they won't support it if it moves to the Armory but what does that say about USATF??? If USATF has really been trying to help Millrose, I don't know how I've always heard "this may be the last one." It's still Millrose. if USATF doesn't support it, that is the bigger failure, and the fact they said it at all strikes me as extremely odd and disloyal.

The Armory consistently puts up live streams and video archives of meets like no one else. The meets aren't lost somewhere in ESPN never to be seen again (even though ESPN misses most of the meet. Especially missing races that are tradition and give Millrose its identity). The meet can still easily be promoted, faster track (Lagat set the US indoor 2 mile record, which the Armory promoted!) and hey it's up close and personal for spectators!

The arena spectacle is something I will definitely miss. The CHSAA 4x8's are experiences I will never forget from HS, we regularly had 400+ people from my school come and MSG as one writer put it, sounded like a playoff game.

It's definitely sad but we have to move forward and play to the advantages now at the Armory, maybe it can move back one day but it is what it is.

Count me as one of those agreeing that Millrose was on life support for years and was a bit of an embarrassment.

Millrose has been a weak pro meet for years and there was truly no reason for it to be in the huge Garden. It was like having a high school play in the Metropolitan Opera House - nice stage, but not enough talent for it to make sense.

It will probably go one year at the Armory and then die...sad, but pro indoor track is just not a big deal right now.

Losing a weak link is not a serious problem.

Embarrassing is the word. I would look around after the meet had started and half the seats were still empty. You could hear a pin drop in there. In hindsight they should have scrapped it a long time ago. I have great memories from the 60's, 70's and early 80's, but you don't hang around simply because you're 'old'. I am as much of a traditionalist as anybody & staunchly defended someone putting down Heyward Field because they thought T & F needed a shiny stadium. This has been a long time coming & if Lagat didn't have that streak going, this probably would have happened a while ago. Too bad they couldn't go out on top. Looking very much forward to the meet continuing at the Armory.