Stop the Presses - Boston officials applying to have 2:03:02 certified as World Record!

Moe's Tavern wrote:

Not like it hasn't been done before.... (according to Wikipedia)

In 1947, the men's record time set was 2:25:39, by Suh Yun-Bok of South Korea. In 1975, a women's world record of 2:42:24 was set by Liane Winter of West Germany, and in 1983, Joan Benoit Samuelson of the United States ran a women's world record time of 2:22:43.

Normally you're pretty good at this stuff but you missed completely in Records & Stats 101.

You should have stopped at "according to wikipedia". Wikipedia isn't a source, it is an open source. Anyone can contribute to an article there and it's up to the Wiki community to police it for accuracy.

Bill Rodgers has held American Records, but never in the marathon. Joanie Benoit has never set a American/World Record in Boston.

These are the official marathon record progressions. Is Boston listed anywhere?

Men

2:05:37.8 Khalid Khannouchi-2 14 Apr 2002 London ENG

2:07:01 Khalid Khannouchi (NY) 22 Oct 2000 Chicago IL USA

2:09:21 Alberto Salazar-3 04 Dec 1983 Fukuoka JPN

2:10:08 Alberto Salazar-2 09 Apr 1983 Rotterdam NED

2:10:20 Tony Sandoval (NM) 09 Sep 1979 Eugene OR USA

2:10:20 Jeff Wells (TX) 09 Sep 1979 Eugene OR USA

2:10:30 Frank Shorter (CO) 03 Dec 1972 Fukuoka JPN

2:11:35.8 Ken Moore-2 06 Dec 1970 Fukuoka JPN

2:13:27.8 Ken Moore (OR) 07 Dec 1969 Fukuoka JPN

2:14:28.8 Amby Burfoot (CT) 08 Dec 1968 Fukuoka JPN

2:15:09.6 Leonard Edelen-2 13 Oct 1963 Kosice SVK

2:18:56.8 Leonard Edelen 02 Dec 1962 Fukuoka JPN

2:20:55.6 John J Kelley-2 11 Oct 1958 Jersey City NJ USA

2:31:12.4 Nicholas Costes (AL) 22 May 1955 Yonkers NY USA

2:31:27 Leslie Pawson (RI) 30 May 1941 Salisbury Beach MA USA

2:33:45.2 Pat Dengis-2 12 Nov 1939 Yonkers NY USA

2:36:04 Joie Ray (IL) 05 Aug 1928 Amsterdam NED

2:37:45 Schou Christiansen (IL) 04 Apr 1925 Detroit MI USA

2:48:14 Clarence DeMar (MA) 13 Jul 1924 Paris FRA

2:49:18.8 Mike Ryan (NY) 24 May 1910 Hamilton ON CAN

Women

2:19:36 Deena Kastor-2 23 Apr 2006 London ENG

2:21:15.4 Deena Kastor (CA) 13 Apr 2003 London ENG

2:21:21 Joan Samuelson-4 20 Oct 1985 Chicago IL USA

2:26:12 Joan Samuelson-3 12 Sep 1982 Eugene OR USA

2:30:57.1 Patti Catalano (VT) 06 Sep 1980 Montreal CAN

2:31:23 Joan Samuelson-2 03 Feb 1980 Auckland NZL

2:35:41 Joan Samuelson (ME) 09 Sep 1979 Eugene OR USA

2:36:23.1 Julie Brown (CA) 10 Sep 1978 Eugene OR USA

2:37:57 Kim Merritt (WI) 11 Sep 1977 Eugene OR USA

2:38:19 Jacqueline Hansen-2 12 Oct 1975 Eugene OR USA

2:43:54.6 Jacqueline Hansen (CA) 01 Dec 1974 Culver City CA USA

2:46:37 Michiko Gorman (CA) 02 Dec 1973 Culver City CA USA

2:49:40 Cheryl Flanagan (MI) 05 Dec 1971 Culver City CA USA

2:55:22 Elizabeth Bonner-2 19 Sep 1971 New York NY USA

3:01:42 Elizabeth Bonner 09 May 1971 Philadelphia PA USA

3:07:10 Sara Mae Berman-2 25 Oct 1970 Atlantic City NJ USA

3:16:02 Nina Kuscsik (NY) 17 May 1970 Yonkers NY USA

3:21:19 Sara Mae Berman (MA) 28 Sep 1969 Atlantic City NJ USA

3:57:49 Susan Morse (PA) 03 Dec 1967 Philadelphia PA USA

3:57:51 Lyn Carman (CA) 02 Oct 1966 Santa Barbara CA USA

5:24: Debbie Haines (AK) 24 Sep 1966 Fairbanks AK USA

6:08: Gail Bakken (AK) 21 Sep 1963 Fairbanks AK USA

Men

2:03:58.2 Haile Gebreselasie-2 28 Sep 2008 Berlin GER

2:04:26 Haile Gebreselasie (ETH) 30 Sep 2007 Berlin GER

2:04:55 Paul Tergat (KEN) 28 Sep 2003 Berlin GER

2:05:37.8 Khalid Khannouchi-2 (USA) 14 Apr 2002 London ENG

2:05:42 Khalid Khannouchi (MAR) 24 Oct 1999 Chicago IL USA

2:06:05 Ronaldo daCosta (BRA) 20 Sep 1998 Berlin GER

2:06:50 Belayneh Dinsamo (ETH) 17 Apr 1988 Rotterdam NED

2:07:12 Carlos Lopes (POR) 20 Apr 1985 Rotterdam NED

2:08:05 Stephen Jones (WAL) 21 Oct 1984 Chicago IL USA

2:08:18 Rob deCastella (AUS) 06 Dec 1981 Fukuoka JPN

2:09:01 Gerard Nijboer (NED) 26 Apr 1980 Amsterdam NED

2:09:05.6 Shigeru So (JPN) 05 Feb 1978 Beppu JPN

2:09:12 Ian Thompson (ENG) 31 Jan 1974 Christchurch NZL

2:09:28.8 Ronald J Hill (ENG) 23 Jul 1970 Edinburgh SCO

2:09:36.4 Derek Clayton (AUS) 03 Dec 1967 Fukuoka JPN

2:12:11.2 Abebe Bikila (ETH) 21 Oct 1964 Tokyo JPN

2:14:43 Brian Leonard Kilby (ENG) 06 Jul 1963 Port Talbot WAL

2:15:15.8 Toru Terasawa (JPN) 17 Feb 1963 Beppu JPN

2:15:16.2 Abebe Bikila (ETH) 10 Sep 1960 Rome ITA

2:15:17.6 Sergey Popov (RUS) 24 Aug 1958 Stockholm SWE

2:18:04.8 Paavo Kotila (FIN) 12 Aug 1956 Pieksamaki FIN

2:18:34.8 James Henry Peters-3 04 Oct 1953 Turku FIN

2:18:40.4 James Henry Peters-2 13 Jun 1953 Windsor ENG

2:20:42.2 James Henry Peters (ENG) 14 Jun 1952 Windsor ENG

2:26:14 Kee-Jung Sohn (KOR) 21 Mar 1935 Tokyo JPN

2:30:57.6 Harry Payne (GBR) 05 Jul 1929 London ENG

2:32:57 Boughera El Ouafi (FRA) 05 Aug 1928 Amsterdam NED

2:34:25.4 Iivari Rötkö (FIN) 12 Sep 1926 Helsinki FIN

2:36:10 Shizo Kanaguri (JPN) 13 Apr 1924 Tokyo JPN

2:43:16.8 Ville Kyronen (FIN) 16 Sep 1923 Helsinki FIN

Women

2:15:24.6 Paula Radcliffe (ENG) 13 Apr 2003 London ENG

2:17:17.7 Paula Radcliffe (ENG) 13 Oct 2002 Chicago IL USA

2:18:47 Catherine Ndereba (KEN) 07 Oct 2001 Chicago IL USA

2:19:46 Naoko Takahashi (JPN) 30 Sep 2001 Berlin GER

2:20:43 Tegla Loroupe-2 26 Sep 1999 Berlin GER

2:20:47 Tegla Loroupe (KEN) 19 Apr 1998 Rotterdam NED

2:21:06 Ingrid Kristiansen-2 21 Apr 1985 London ENG

2:24:26 Ingrid Kristiansen (NOR) 13 May 1984 London ENG

2:25:28.7 Grete Waitz (NOR) 17 Apr 1983 London ENG

2:26:12 Joan Samuelson-2 12 Sep 1982 Eugene OR USA

2:29:01.6 Charlotte Teske (GER) 16 Jan 1982 Miami FL USA

2:29:57 Joyce Smith-2 29 Mar 1981 London ENG

2:30:27 Joyce Smith (ENG) 16 Nov 1980 Tokyo JPN

2:30:57.1 Patti Catalano (USA) 06 Sep 1980 Montreal CAN

2:31:23 Joan Samuelson (USA) 03 Feb 1980 Auckland NZL

2:34:47.5 Christa Vahlensieck-2 10 Sep 1977 Berlin GER

2:38:19 Jacqueline Hansen-2 12 Oct 1975 Eugene OR USA

2:40:15.8 Christa Vahlensieck (GER) 03 May 1975 Dulmen GER

2:43:54.6 Jacqueline Hansen (USA) 01 Dec 1974 Culver City CA USA

2:46:24 Chantal Langlace (FRA) 27 Oct 1974 Neuf Brisach FRA

2:46:37 Michiko Gorman (USA) 02 Dec 1973 Culver City CA USA

2:49:40 Cheryl Flanagan (USA) 05 Dec 1971 Culver City CA USA

2:55:22 Elizabeth Bonner-2 19 Sep 1971 New York NY USA

3:01:42 Elizabeth Bonner (USA) 09 May 1971 Philadelphia PA USA

3:02:53 Caroline Walker (USA) 28 Feb 1970 Seaside OR/USA

3:07:26.2 Anni Pede-Erdkamp (GER) 16 Sep 1967 Waldniel GER

3:14:22.8 Maureen Wilson (CAN) 06 May 1967 Toronto ON CAN

3:27:45 Dale Greig (SCO) 23 May 1964 Ryde ENG

3:40:22 Violet Piercy (ENG) 29 May 1926 Chiswick ENG

5:40: Marie-Louise Ledru (FRA) 29 Sep 1918 Paris FRA

Kevin Hanson wrote:

The reason that Boston is a POINT TO POINT course is because members of the BAA ran in the original marathon that was to honor the running of the messanger (Phidipides sp) and then returned to Boston to replicate that race. A MARATHON by definition (or at least by historical measures) is a ONE WAY EVENT.

It is a little odd that the ORIGINAL MARATHON would not be eligible for a WR. Or that Phidipides would run in a circle to deliver the message "hail we conquer".

Interestingly, the original marathon is a net UPHILL race and even with tailwind you won't see a WR there. Now Boston is net downhill. Major difference.

wejo wrote:

Here's a good discussion on the wind's effect. The authors believe it made a 3-4 minute difference off of a normal Boston, some are saying 2+ minutes.

Typing links with lemonjuice and water again are we.

TVToni said 90 sec to 2 mins FWIW

wejo wrote:

Obadele Thompson (now Marion Jones husband) ran a 9.69 when I was in college with a huge wind at his back. No one even bothered to consider it a world record.

What are the rules with wind during a marathon, which is a completely different beast than a sprint? If there were an out and back course with a 10 mph tail wind that then turned into a head wind for the return leg, would all times be dismissed? How about if the wind died down just before the turnaround? I've never heard of wind being monitored for two hours at any marathon course to determine if it provided an advantage. If it's not done for Berlin, London & Chicago, why should it be for Boston? At any of the loop courses, it's possible that the wind could pick up at just the right times and from the right directions to provide a net gain.

sub240 wrote:

Interestingly, the original marathon is a net UPHILL race and even with tailwind you won't see a WR there. Now Boston is net downhill. Major difference.

What 'original marathon ' is uphill?

clearing the bs up wrote:

So when do we start subtracting time from a finisher's result because of a headwind or a hot day or some other unfavorable condition?

I can't believe people are being this stupid. If you want to run a WR, you have to run on an eligible course. They have rules, like no point-to-point courses (or whatever). You can't change the rule about setting records just because someone runs a crazy time on an ineligible course.

It has nothing to do with adding or subtracting from someone's finishing time, and it doesn't detract from the quality of the performance. You just can't compare it to running on a course that meets the record requirements.

Clown wrote:? At any of the loop courses, it's possible that the wind could pick up at just the right times and from the right directions to provide a net gain.

Please give an example when that has ever happened? Event, place and date? Thank you.

If Mutai gets the world record, I think Mike Boit's 3:28 mile deserves to be the mile world record. I mean, it was downhill, but it was a mile!

Kevin Hanson wrote:

George,

I stand corrected. But I believe the point remains solid. The original marathon was a POINT TO POINT course and the BAA was trying to duplicate a similar course, 115 years ago.

However, I also wouldn't want the sport to turn into a dropping from an airplane and timing the drop.

So if it sounds like I am wish wash on the issue, it is because I am.

Kevin

Kevin. There was no such thing as an original marathon, so how do you duplicate something that never happened?

Why are you "wishy wiashy" on this issue. You're a runner. Would you ever call Obdele Thompsons 9.69 at WR? If you did you'd be ridiculed, and deserve it. Why would you think that a marathon with twice the wind that Thomspson had be record worthy? This isn't even an option.

malmo wrote:

What 'original marathon ' is uphill?

Marathon is at lower elevation than Athens. That was the case 2500 years ago (around 37k distance?) as well es 1896 (First Olympics, 40k) as well as 2004 (42.195km).

On July 4, 1986, three men ran under 1-hour for the half marathon. They did this at the Fontana Day's Half-marathon in California. The course has a drop of 2,500 ft (650m).

59:22 _ Sam Sitonik (KEN, Born 23.10.55)

59:26 _ Ken Moloney (NZL, 11.11.61)

59:41 _ Terry Cotton (USA, 07.08.54)

The times were never recognized as a WR, and they are not listed as three of the all-time fastest halves ever run.

Boston can't have the WR. The 3:02:02 will likely be the fastest aided marathon time for a long time. A real WR to try to beat, no.

malmo wrote:

It is absolutly astounding the amount of bullshit that people have been trying to pass over the last two days. Now Geb's WR run at Berlin, a two loop course was "87 Percent" tailwind?

You win.

That was my point. "The wind shifted in Berlin, giving Geb a tailwind for 87% of the race" is bulls**t.

But, it's a road race. If we base any of this illegitimacy talk on wind, because it appears to have been advantageous to Mutai, then that's a problem. . . at what point is wind an advantage? What if Geb's WR in Berlin was actually aided for a portion by a tailwind?

I'm less concerned about the slippery slope of downhill and point-to-point courses to be allowed as WRs, more concerned about the slippery slope of saying that a 2 hour race was wind-aided.

Alter my opinion: There simply shouldn't be marathon world records.

Wejo, I appreciate what everyone has contributed to the dispute at hand. It is a complex issue and whatever solution will be arrived at, I am sure, will still not satisfy everyone. I will however be quick to point that, as an athlete with great amount of experience, strong winds coming from the back more than hurts the performance than it helps. The effects may not be as if the winds were coming from the front but still slows performance. You run better when there is no external force acting against you from any direction. This is only for long distances. In sprints, it is a different story, because you only have to withstand it for a very short time compared to the time for long distances. I advocate for Geoffrey Mutai's time of (2:03:02) to be recognized as world record but with some adjustment,say add 20 seconds to that time. That makes it 2:03:22. Or add 30 seconds. His run is definately better than Gebresillasie or anyone for that matter has ever run before. Ask Gebresillasie and no doubt he will agree his record was broken Monday in Boston.

FWIW in hilly areas it is relatively easy to design a "wind-aided" course using hills and other barriers to shelter return legs from prevailing winds. I have several training loops that are noticeably faster on windy days. I'm surprised that shrewd course designers haven't manged to do the same.

interesting twist wrote:

As of a few hours ago...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/more/04/19/boston.marathon.mutai.ap/index.html

"Boston Marathon officials say they will apply to the IAAF to have Geoffrey Mutai's winning time of 2 hours, 3 minutes, 2 seconds certified as a world record..."

"Boston officials say that the 115-year history of the race shows it is not an artificially fast course."

Post Edited

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The decision by the IAAF to deny Kenya's Geoffrey Mutai the distinction of running the world's fastest marathon (2:03.02) at Monday's Boston Marathon might be the singlemost objectionable ruling I've ever seen by a governing body in sports. You mean it's taken the IAAF 115 years to decree that the most venerable marathon in the world is too easy to be legitimate? And too subject to tailwinds to be legitimate?

Anyone ever hear them say any of that before Monday?

Out of nowhere, the IAAF simply dismisses the record for conditions over 26-plus miles on an internationally famed track. They may as well run it inside Fanueil Hall next year too take the elements out of the equation.

===================================================================

NativeSon wrote:

===================================================================

The decision by the IAAF to deny Kenya's Geoffrey Mutai the distinction of running the world's fastest marathon (2:03.02) at Monday's Boston Marathon might be the singlemost objectionable ruling I've ever seen by a governing body in sports. You mean it's taken the IAAF 115 years to decree that the most venerable marathon in the world is too easy to be legitimate? And too subject to tailwinds to be legitimate?

Anyone ever hear them say any of that before Monday?

Out of nowhere, the IAAF simply dismisses the record for conditions over 26-plus miles on an internationally famed track. They may as well run it inside Fanueil Hall next year too take the elements out of the equation.

===================================================================

http://globalvoicesonline.org/2011/04/19/kenyans-continue-to-dominate-international-marathons/

Awesomeness. I think they should just run the marathon at Boston University to avoid all of this. Let's make all marathons 26-mile track races. Fun.

malmo wrote:

Kevin. There was no such thing as an original marathon, so how do you duplicate something that never happened?

You're dumb.

askosdkm wrote:

malmo wrote:

Kevin. There was no such thing as an original marathon, so how do you duplicate something that never happened?

You're dumb.

Based on what?

I don't think Boston has ever been a "slow" course. People didn't run blazing times there for a few reasons:

1) They killed themselves on the early downhills

2) No rabbits to set a blistering pace.

3) Hasn't had London/Berlin/Rotterdam/Chicago type fields for the past 15 years.

NativeSon wrote:

The decision by the IAAF to deny Kenya's Geoffrey Mutai the distinction of running the world's fastest marathon (2:03.02) at Monday's Boston Marathon might be the singlemost objectionable ruling I've ever seen by a governing body in sports. You mean it's taken the IAAF 115 years to decree that the most venerable marathon in the world is too easy to be legitimate? And too subject to tailwinds to be legitimate?

Anyone ever hear them say any of that before Monday?

Out of nowhere, the IAAF simply dismisses the record for conditions over 26-plus miles on an internationally famed track. They may as well run it inside Fanueil Hall next year too take the elements out of the equation.

3

Yes "out of nowhere" the IAAF just decided to deny Mutai of a world record when and a course that doesn't meet record requirements and had a tailwind.

Yup, those jealous old cranky bastards in Monaco have nothing better to do than to screw people out of records FOR NO REASON AT ALL.

We get it. You are delusional.