Wow, Lydiard training seems ridiculously hard

PS-and while at it, might as well why don't you ask that unanswered question from the previous thread? Let's see if we can get any clear and specific "evidence" from him.

HRE wrote:

Basically, I've always interpreted the fractions as 1/4, very easy, 1/2, moderately easy, 3/4, moderately hard. 7/8, a step or two below all out.

I like this description. One of the problems is many people never learn to run by feel. People get too hung up on pace/mi:km. A HR monitor can help, a GPS watch can hurt. Better yet, run an unmeasured course with just a basic stopwatch (just to get the duration) and learn to read your body. If you are slammed the next day, you went too hard. If you feel "pleasantly tired" the next day, you did it right.

On a day when you are tired, you can't expect to run the same pace as a day when you are fresh. So running by feel is important. As you get fitter, the pace generally gets faster at the same effort. But again, you are controlling effort, not pace.

I think Lydiard's fraction tables are too hard. Daniels tables are more realistic, but still too hard for longer tempos. Though you have to use current ability, not goal times for the tables to work right.

HRE wrote:

I never make references to physiology when I discuss training.

You never make references to physiology when I discuss training and also your mathematics is very poor. Your 3/4 is not the same 3 /4 of mathematics.

You ever make reference to Lydiard and that´s all. Sometimes you use mythodology, a word made of myth and methodology. Mythology is your main support for training discuss.

I think chances of getting a response I haven't already seen, are between low and zero, inclusive. I've been asking this question basically in some form or another, for about 3 years now, receiving some responses about interval training and periodization, but very little else. Where can I find more information about modern improvements since Lydiard?I think I understand comments about interval training, and periodization. I just wonder, is there more? Or, is that all there is?I like reading Renato's threads which provide some new insights in modern training of some Kenyans.But otherwise, the answers I've seen so far, don't seem to justify the backlash against alleged Lydiard "cultists".Like someone else asked, "Why the obsession?"

Troll-police wrote:

Rekrunner:

Did you ask the same English-killer a very specific question of listing 3 athletes/training methods that are different/opposite of Lydiard since 1970s? Funny how quickly, for as much and as long as he babbles along, he disappeared after that question.... What do you think the chance of you getting any clear answer for this one?

I take the modern coach James Li sentence as my own.

“If I’ve been able to do one thing, it is to liberate myself from what is written in a book” – Bernard Lagat coach James Li.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/24/sports/olympics/24lagat.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2

Troll-police wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Can you recommend a good book on modern training?

Rekrunner:

Did you ask the same English-killer a very specific question of listing 3 athletes/training methods that are different/opposite of Lydiard since 1970s? Funny how quickly, for as much and as long as he babbles along, he disappeared after that question.... What do you think the chance of you getting any clear answer for this one?[/quote]

I take James Li sentence as my own.

“If I’ve been able to do one thing, it is to liberate myself from what is written in a book” – Bernard Lagat coach James Li.

I don´t need to go further on your question. Here you got one great coach with a runner of great sucess with one training method that is opposite to Lydiard - his own.

ps - i hope you willn´t say that james Li is a Lydiard coach.

Troll-police wrote:

Did you ask the same English-killer a very specific question of listing 3 athletes/training methods that are different/opposite of Lydiard since 1970s? Funny how quickly, for as much and as long as he babbles along, he disappeared after that question.... What do you think the chance of you getting any clear answer for this one?

Here goes te first one.

To satisfy your usual doubt let´s see one case of modern training.

I post something we might get back to the original track of this thread “Lydiard training seems ridiculously hard”.

Peter Snell. He needed 5 seasons, 5 years of training to be able to run the Lydiard classic 100miles block. In the process he struggled with stress fracture injury.

Exert from FAST SCIENCE: A HISTORY OF TRAINING THEORY AND METHODS FOR ELITE RUNNERS THROUGH 1975 by Nicholas David Bourne – 2008

Lydiard reaped significant success with his methods, forged out of many years of

trial and error. However, caution should be applied to the use of such high mileages,

particularly in the marathon stage of training. While a number athletes may be able to

reach the ideal one hundred miles per week many athletes may fall by the way side and

suffer set backs if they are not biomechanically predisposed to handle such mileage. (*)

Indeed, even Peter Snell, Lydiard’s most successful athlete, struggled at times with injury

and the inability to consistently achieve the desired one hundred miles (*). This is clearly

chronicled by Cordner Nelson, inaugural editor of Track and Field News, who noted that

in the fall of 1959, a year after beginning full scale training with Lydiard, Snell suffered a

stress fracture, a clear indication of excessive forces and the inability of the body to adapt

to stress. Nelson further notes that 1964 was the first time that Snell had been able to

endure Lydiard’s one-hundred mile schedule for a full ten weeks. Previously, the best

Snell could manage was a meager three weeks. (*)

(*) - Nelson, Track's Greatest Champions

Now, you have the opposite. Bernard Lagat. Coached by James Li

Is Lagat the most uninjured top runner ever?

Bernard Lagat

3:26.34,7:29,12:54

double world gold medalist in 2007 at 1500/5000

silver medalist in athens olympics at 1500 in 2004

silver at 5000m at berlin world champs in 2009

bronze at 1500m at berlin world champs in 2009

bronze at 1500 at sydney olympics in 2000

silver at 1500 at world's in 2001

silver at 1500 at world indoor in 2003

(didn't run world in 2003 because of false positive)

gold at 3000 at world indoor in 2004 and 2010

8 American records not including the 3:27, see below:

"The U.S. does allow dual citizenship and consequently races run by Lagat after May 7, 2004 could have been ratified as American records, since USATF rules only state that an athlete has to be a U.S. citizen competing in a sanctioned competition to be eligible to set a national record. However, at the 2005 USATF annual meeting, his 3:27.40 win in the 1500 meters, on August 6, 2004, in Zurich, was not ratified as an American record."

For those who can´t discuss about every training subject without quote Lydiard, this one should be the quote of the day.

“If I’ve been able to do one thing, it is to liberate myself from what is written in a book” – Bernard Lagat coach, James Li.

So, in other words, you are unable to recommend a good book on modern training.

I don't know how I will ever drag myself into this century -- burn my books?

What are the top 3 things that Li/Lagat does that is the opposite of Lydiard?

The ambiguity of Lydiard's "fractional efforts", doesn't come from the fractions, nor any misunderstanding of any branch of mathematics. The fractional numbers are precise, and unambiguous. The vagueness comes from the inability to measure and quantify "effort", which, for Lydiard, was something relative to race pace at that distance.I know how to measure time and distance, but I don't know of any instrument that reliably and accurately measures "effort", nor in which units such a measure would be expressed.Most people troubled by this aren't concerned with "efforts" per se, but how to transform Lydiard's unmeasurable "efforts" into something they can measure, "pace", for specific workouts.

Khadaffi on power wrote:

... and also your mathematics is very poor. Your 3/4 is not the same 3 /4 of mathematics.

rekrunner wrote:

Can you recommend a good book on modern training?

Good luck with that.

Can you take a break from the training talk and discuss this with our friend instead?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_grammar

I think Antonio would be easier to understand if he wrote in Portuguese.

Yeah, or just stopped rambling like a crazy homeless person.

Brevity, English killer, is the soul of wit.

rekrunner wrote:

So, in other words, you are unable to recommend a good book on modern training.

I don't know how I will ever drag myself into this century -- burn my books?

What are the top 3 things that Li/Lagat does that is the opposite of Lydiard?

Holy crap. Excuse me to deceive you but my training knowledge is not done in books. I only read 3 books about training. Long ago i read one book "Running to the Top” and I didn´t like it. Then I read “Self-Made Olympian” by Ron Daws I didn´t like it as well. Finally I did a third attempt recently and I read “Healthy Intelligent Training: The Proven Principles of Arthur Lydiard” by Keith Livingston. I didn´t like either.

Li 3 things.

Best training, best training and best training. Well, as the 3 musketeers are 4, i want to name one 4th thing opposite to Lydiard. At the present Li is one coach of the modern training, Lydiard is one of the old training.

“If I’ve been able to do one thing, it is to liberate myself from what is written in a book” – Bernard Lagat coach, James Li.

Khadaffi : Interestingly, the one guy who is at the centre of this thread would fully agree with this quote.

I knew Arthur Lydiard and the one thing he said which is at the crux of all this is that he NEVER wanted to publish schedules as they would immediately be mis -interpreted. The book publishers were the ones who pushed it.

His best Coaching was when he was "on deck" with athletes or anyone who wanted to run for that matter.

As one of your so named "Lydiardites" said, it took him a long time to work out what Arthur meant from his book, it was not until he met him that he began to understand.

Arthur was always a controversial guy. What has changed !!!!

Khadaffi on power wrote:

At the present Li is one coach of the modern training, Lydiard is one of the old training.

Fantasy. There is no new training, only different adaptations of old ideas.

James Li is a one hit wonder. Lagat dropped in his lap. I'd no sooner listen to Li on training than I'd listen to a lottery winner on financial matters.

rekrunner wrote:

So, in other words, you are unable to recommend a good book on modern training.

I don't know how I will ever drag myself into this century -- burn my books?

What are the top 3 things that Li/Lagat does that is the opposite of Lydiard?

Li, Li, Li. You want to change of conversation. I promise I don´t run away from Lydiard ridiculous hard.

3 more things. But first, nothing is opposed to Lydiard. Might be progress, some steps further from what´s the Lydiard training, because distance training deals with the same variables.

1-better aerobics get it from different volume mileage approach.

2-better anaerobic get it from different intensity approach

3- different season periodization.

In synthesis. The Li training is tailed for best performances. In fact I don´t remember one Lydiard runner that did what Lagat did.

rekrunner wrote:

So, in other words, you are unable to recommend a good book on modern training.

I don't know how I will ever drag myself into this century -- burn my books?

What are the top 3 things that Li/Lagat does that is the opposite of Lydiard?

Li, Li, Li. You want to change of conversation. I promise I don´t run away from Lydiard ridiculous hard.

3 more things. But first, nothing is opposed to Lydiard. Might be progress, some steps further from what´s the Lydiard training, because distance training deals with the same variables.

1-better aerobics get it from different volume mileage approach.

2-better anaerobic get it from different intensity approach

3- different season periodization.

In synthesis. The Li training is tailed for best performances. In fact I don´t remember one Lydiard runner that did what Lagat did.