Are 40' 10k, 1:30 half and 3:10 marathon really equivalent performances?

Agreed with most posters that the 3:10 is still far away and that working on getting a little faster at shorter distance, while throwing longer workouts and adding mileage will be the key.

Still, I want to run NYC again this year in an "ok" time. As I said my first experience w/ the marathon came on no training b/c of injury and I'd like to run it again this year. It doesn't matter if I break 3:10 right now, and maybe training with 3:16 in mind (7:30 pace) will make more sense.

The 4 questions I included are the key to getting to the next level in terms of volume, and I have to say I have no idea how to do it. I'm more interested in running a solid marathon (whatever this means) than getting sub 18:30 5k just to crack 3:10 on next try.

Crow with Knife wrote:

I'll quote my own post since people are chiming in with 1:23 1/2 and 3:09 full times (WTF?). To me that means either inappropriate training or injury-limited.

Hey - easy! :)

In terms of times run within the same year, as I mentioned I was ONCE 1:24/3:03. Don't know about other people here, but I fully admitted that my training then was far underdistance to do the best marathon I could then.

The OP seems to have a good plan, though, and I definitely think that halfx2 +10 is a good goal IF he puts in appropriate miles.

Honestly, I'm less worried about his half time than how he gets there. Predicting marathon pace off of low-mileage success in the half has led to a lot of painful races in the weekend warrior division and elites alike. If he does 1:29 off of 45+ mpw, I'll be more optimistic than he does even 1:26 off of 35 mpw, for example.

Just chiming back in with a follow up, as we are almost identical in terms of PRs (as I previously posted). When I hit 3:12, my max mileage was 52 miles, and I did that by running 5 days a week. My schedule was like this:

Sun - mile repeats (6-8 x 10k pace)

Mon - 5 miles easy

Tues - 14 miles (no watch, just depended on how I felt)

Wed - weights/abs (high rep total body workout)

Thurs - 5 miles at goal marathon pace (just to know how it felt)

Friday - 23 miles*

Sat - weights/abs (same as above)

* - 23 was my max long run, I did 3 total runs of 20+ miles, as well as 3 of 18. I had a very long training phase so once I got to 16-18 miles, I sort of stayed there for a while to acclimate myself and let my speed catch up to the distance.

One thing that helped me with my time was I trained in the deep South (Atlanta) in the humid summer on tough hills, but raced in the midwest (Ohio) in the cool/dry Fall on a flat course. I was shocked by the times that were flying by early in the race at a very relaxed effort.

Disagree with some of what has been said here.

If all you really want to do is run 3:10 you don't need to get any faster - you just need better endurance (of course you WILL get faster if you build your fitness). Here's the thing: Run as many days as you can, as many times a day as you can. Run the mileage as easy as it takes to be able to come back and run again the next day (or the next time in the same day). I will argue that two easy runs in one day of 4 or 5 miles each time will stress your body LESS than one 8 or 10mile run per day. Run a long one on the weekend to train yourself to be on your feet for a long time.

However you manage it running lots of miles is the key. What's 'lots of miles' to you? Dunno, try it and see. If your fitness is good enough a 3:10 (for your ability) will be like falling off a log.

I think you can run sub 3:00 on a 39:59. i ran 3:02 on a 19:10 5k and 40:15 10k. i ran a 1/2 in training that year of 1:28ish. the 3:02 was in a storm and i'm certain that in better conditions, i would have gone 2:58 since running felt so dang easy that day. the keys were:

1) many years of building base mileage and running i.e. 9 yrs of training and racing at 60-80mpw

2) a build up of weeks that went 100mpw followed by 60mpw for 3 months or so where the last high mileage week was 3 months prior to the race

3) in the months leading up to the race, stayed at around 70 with lots of tempo running on saturdays followed by sunday long runs (easy). key workout was a 10mile tempo at around 6:50 pace followed by a 20 miler the next day.

Same? wrote:

Looks like it according to most online calculators, but just wanted a quick reality check from those with similar race times.

Yes this is not fast, but it's a good enough goal for the non-talented late 20s early 30s male (like me).

I've run 19:22 for the 5k last yr off 25mpw, planning to run about 35mpw for train for the 10k w/ 40' goal (April), close to 40mpw for the half w/ 1:30 goal in June and then will start marathon training for a fall. Assuming that progression can be done, is 3:10 a reasonable goal for the Fall?

thx

19:22 is approximately equivalent to 40', and with enough long runs, that may just be enough for 3:10 (but if it's your first marathon, I would aim at 3:15).

1:30 is by far the weakest of the times. With sub 40:00, you should aim at 1:28.

With very low volume and few long runs, 1:30 may be more difficult than 40:00, but not if you're training for a 3:10 marathon.

Same? wrote:

Looks like it according to most online calculators, but just wanted a quick reality check from those with similar race times.

Yes this is not fast, but it's a good enough goal for the non-talented late 20s early 30s male (like me).

I've run 19:22 for the 5k last yr off 25mpw, planning to run about 35mpw for train for the 10k w/ 40' goal (April), close to 40mpw for the half w/ 1:30 goal in June and then will start marathon training for a fall. Assuming that progression can be done, is 3:10 a reasonable goal for the Fall?

thx

I do not know your age or background, but I think that you can go from 'zero to 60' a lot faster than some (many? most?) schedules indicate. Specifically, I was barely 7th man on our JV high school team, but matured late. I ran sporadically on my own over the next five years and then started running a lot at the beginning of August. I ran 38:50 for 10k at the beginning of December -- except that was my split for the last 10k of a marathon, which I ran in 2:52:30.

It hurt a lot when I brought my mileage up a lot (I was typically running 6 in the early morning and in the afternoon of US Army summer camp. By a couple of weeks later my legs had adjusted and then I ran a 2:15 20.7 mile run with the Pomona College XC team and only died the last 3 miles. I got over 100 mpw by October and through late-November. I did not taper nearly enough, but that was before there was much info, much less LetsRun or even the internet (early 1970s).

You are not going to run the equivalent marks unless you are doing equivalent training for the distance, which means a lot of mileage.

Crow with Knife: I'm the OP and I think I agree with you. I have 10 month to go before this (2nd marathon). I tend to get injured b/c of hills and intervals and for this next try I was actually thinking of cutting them off completely (I have no self control and previously ran up to 5:30 pace quarter milers up the Queensboro brige, yes I am dumb).

Following all this good advice I am thinking:

1) build a base starting at 30mpw, ending around 40-45mpw for 3 months with this scheme:

- 1 long tempo at 6:50 pace or (maybe every 2 wks) cruise intervals at 6:35ish

- 1 medium long run (8-12 mi) easy around 8:30-9:00

- 1 long run (10-15mi), some ran as progresive pace (e.g drop 30 sec/mile from 9:00 to 7:30)

- 2 recovery runs super easy

2) with that base start marathon training, with same scheme, just longer tempos (as someone pointed out, 3x3mi etc.) and more MP (7:15 to 7:30) runs but again, no speed training (cruise intervals at most)

This assumes 5 days a week for the base, no doubles. Maybe add doubles (I'd rather do 2 easy 4milers or 4 miles recovery the evening of hard days than running 6x/wk) during marathon training if I want over 50mpw. Thoughts?

My most recent times are

37:40 for 10k on thanksgiving

17:30 for 5k more recently

I have 9 70+ mile weeks and 8 20+ mile runs

I am running the surf city marathon this weekend,

Should a 3:04 be a realistic goal?

I am 21 and in my 2nd year of running(my prior PR on roughly 40 miles a week is a 3:30)

thoughts?

bigwindows wrote:

I think you can run sub 3:00 on a 39:59. i ran 3:02 on a 19:10 5k and 40:15 10k. i ran a 1/2 in training that year of 1:28ish. the 3:02 was in a storm and i'm certain that in better conditions, i would have gone 2:58 since running felt so dang easy that day. the keys were:

1) many years of building base mileage and running i.e. 9 yrs of training and racing at 60-80mpw

2) a build up of weeks that went 100mpw followed by 60mpw for 3 months or so where the last high mileage week was 3 months prior to the race

3) in the months leading up to the race, stayed at around 70 with lots of tempo running on saturdays followed by sunday long runs (easy). key workout was a 10mile tempo at around 6:50 pace followed by a 20 miler the next day.

This will make you a badass, if you can handle it. Before my PR marathon I spent Fall saturdays running a XC race series of between 5K and 10K distances. I always followed those Sat races with a long, easy Sunday run of up to 20miles. The good thing about the XC races is that they were on dirt trails with lots of hills - the dirt surface is very forgiving on the legs. Hard Saturday / Long Sunday - very powerful training stimulus, that combination.

Intercontinental wrote:

Here's the thing:

Anyone with a 40:00 10k CAN do 1:30 for the half, and probably WILL.

Someone with a 1:30:00 half CAN do 3:10 for the marathon, and probably WON'T.

The training to do 13 miles at 6:50 pace to hit ~1:30:00 isn't a whole lot different than doing 6.2 miles at 6:25 for a ~40:00 10k. It sounds like you can probably get there on your 25 mpw, really.

But doing 26.2 at 7:15 pace (or any pace), while well within the grasp of someone with a 40:00/1:30:00, does require a significant step up in mileage (for most).

This is right on and describes me to a T. I can go 17 5K and 37 10k but then only 1:27 and 3:13. Never got my mileage above 50 for reasons of time or injury, and it doesn't reveal itself until the higher distances.

Ran a 3:03:57 today off of

37:47 10k

17:30 5k

Broke my previous HM pr and Marathon PR by a minute a mile -

If you push your mileage and stay well you can do it/they are probably equivalent. Footwork does equal results though, and high mileage is critical.

I agree with the above. The marathon is for me an animal unto itself. Got back into running in a big way at about age age 45 - never ran on any high school or college teams.

Ran 2:59 with times of 1:30 for the half and a 38:30 10k within the same year or two(2005).

By concentrating on marathon specific training I ran half marathon PR's(for my forties) in the first and second halves of different races at about 1:27, dropping the full PR to 2:57(2006 and 2007).

Knee injury in 2007, surgery late 2008, back to running Fall, 2009 and the training is even more T, M and endurance specific to avoid the track and stride/sprints. It will be interesting to see how this even more specific approach works.

Ran 3:11 last October and have been adding doubles ala Malmo for the first time to try something, anything new. I've never averaged more than 60 mpw until this cycle and I'm closer to 70 mpw lately with a couple weeks near 75.

I run almost no tune up races because a hard half for me in the midst of marathon training requires an easy week before and after and will still probably be slow if I'm training well.

The longer race times are the best predictors of marathon performance but sometimes the translation from one distance to another can be minimal, unless you have maximally trained and rested for each PR at each distance.