Dominguez detained in doping investigation

We Rule The World wrote:

USA is the center of the world, and all the world does revolve around us. The entire EU is just part of our empire, and Spain is one of the poorest backwater parts of our EU satellite states. You're unemployment is officially over 20% and you're known as one of the PIGS that drag down the Euro.

Gringo

For instance. Have you ever been in Louisiana ? Poor than the poor parts of Spain.

No surprise wrote:

Anyone still believe Contador is clean now?

Of course not. Alejandro Valverde's blood was found during Operation Puerto (the one that bought down Ivan Basso and Jan Ullrich), and yet the Spanish Sporting Federation still tried to say he was clean and wouldn't sanction him.

Italy has similar issues. It seems that the Italian and Spanish government want clean sport (and the US too), but the sporting federations are not so helpful. Italy has had several raids as well bringing down people like Petacchi and DiLuca.

I think France is the only nation where the government and at least the cycling body really want to end doping.

She's hot

Mats Nilsson wrote:

"..........

Sports on a level playing field is a myth anyway."

I feel sorry for you. I have been involved in athletics on every possible level for over 40 years and your last sentence is the only one I agree with. How did you become so disillusioned?

Mats Congrats for your career. I do not agree with you on many things here, and I feel you have been misguided. Cezar Perez has been using legal and probably illegal performance enhancing drugs since his late UTEP days. With Juarez so close somebody can be easily tempted to drive 10 min and buy some.

Maybe one day it will be proven that he had helped other runners in El Paso area with drugs when he was a graduate assistant for UTEP and after...

Indeed He is nice, jovial and has a lot of charm..., thus many as yourself never seen his other side... Appearances can be Misleading!!!

I really feel sorry for him, but he got himself in this situation.

Sure Not wrote:

Mats Congrats for your career. I do not agree with you on many things here, and I feel you have been misguided. Cezar Perez has been using legal and probably illegal performance enhancing drugs since his late UTEP days. With Juarez so close somebody can be easily tempted to drive 10 min and buy some.

Maybe one day it will be proven that he had helped other runners in El Paso area with drugs when he was a graduate assistant for UTEP and after...

Indeed He is nice, jovial and has a lot of charm..., thus many as yourself never seen his other side... Appearances can be Misleading!!!

I really feel sorry for him, but he got himself in this situation.

I am sure we know each other, and I couldn't agree with you more on every single point you have made.

Anyone still think Oregon Project is clean?

Drug addicted, I arrived two days ago from Doha, where I had to stay for one week after the Asian Games.

I never said that top athletes don't use doping. I said that WITH ALL THE BEST AFRICAN ATHLETES THIS DOPING CANNOT WORK : this is a different thing.

One of the marks that makes the difference between very good athletes and TOP CHAMPIONS is the fact that ALL THE BEST AFRICAN RUNNERS can enhance, after 3-4 months of Aerobic Training at high level, their global volume of blood of 20-25%. This means that they can run WITH ONE LITER OF BLOOD MORE IN THEIR CIRCULATORY SYSTEM, increasing in absolute natural way their ability in transporting Oxygen.

Hematocrit is the product of the number of erythrocytes per the globular volume. While the globular volume of caucasic athletes (normally European and American) is usually between 85 and 90, the same for African top runners living in altitude is between 105 and 110.

This fact means that, inside the cell, THE SERUM PERCENTAGE IS VERY MUCH HIGHER. Due to this fact, the PERIFERAL RESISTANCE (bigger if the VISCOSITY becomes very high) is very little, and their blood is more fluid.

This means that top African runners can reach a level of heartbeats higher than who doesn't have this characteristic (for example, 220 per min. after 300m uphill run at max speed, at 2300m of altitude, while the best athletes born and living at sea level NEVER can reach, in the same conditions, 200 beats).

For all these situations, with these type of athletes the blood doping CANNOT WORK. Don't forget that, if you take EPO or something similar, THE FIRST EFFECT IS THAT THE BLOOD INCREASES ITS VISCOSITY.

This is the big difference between top African and the best from other Countries.

I had African runners able to improve in short time in unbelievable way, and I had other African not able to improve too much, using the same type of training.

For example, if I have 3 athletes running 10000m with little training (and not continuity) in 29', in 4 months of tough training (following a scientific Aerobic Plan), I have one moving to 28'30", one to 27'45" and one to 27'. And still, they had the same plan !

The difference in their performance is connected with the difference of TALENT, and we speak about the type of talent that is not possible to investigate, because is something that you have or you don't have in your body. It depends, for example, on the elasticity of the Circulatory System : if your tissues are not elastic, where do you put one liter more of blood ?

In this case (therefore, WHEN THE ATHLETE DOESN'T HAVE THE PHYSIOLOGICAL QUALITIES OF A TOP CHAMPION), doping can work.

So, my position is very simple : WHEN WE SPEAK ABOUT THE TOP TALENTS IN MIDDLE AND LONG DISTANCES, THE BLOOD DOPING DOESN'T WORK. When we speak about good athletes born at sea level, BLOOD DOPING CAN GIVE ADVANTAGES.

We know, working at top level in the Athletic World, that there are Countries having a "Doping Mentality" that is fruit of a "Pharmacological idea" of the way of living.

Don't forget that the 3rd business in the World is the business of PHARMACS. In every advanced Country (US, Europe, Oceania) there are a lot of spots pushing normal people to use every type of support : vitamins, nutritional supplements, tablets for increasing your health and every type of personal power, salts, etc...

The result is that NORMAL PEOPLE THINK THAT, WITHOUT TAKING SOMETHING FOR SUPPORTING THEM, they cant be able to have any type of success in their life, and they cant have a good health.

My position is exactly the opposite.

I AM AGAINST THE IDEA OF EVERY SUPPORT, also for the top athletes : NOT DOPING, BUT VERY BASIC SUPPORT.

My athletes don't take vitamins, supplements, tablets and, if are sick, ARE NOT ATHLETES AT THE MOMENT.

A SICK ATHLETE DOESN'T EXIST. THERE IS A SICK PERSON, that has to work for reovering the full health ; AFTER THERE IS A PERSON IN GOOD HEALTH, THAT CAN START TO WORK FOR BECOMING AN ATHLETE.

You can believe in what I say or not, this is your problem, not my problem. But I think to have results more important working on the BRAIN of the athletes, making in their mind easy what before was difficult (if not impossible), that giving some support. I think that 50% of a top performance (having the same level of training) is produced by the level of SELF CONFIDENCE, and this level is very much higher when the athlete is confident in his own strength and his own qualities. I try to teach to my athletes that they have to see till where can arrive using their qualities only : this is still the maximal motivation in every person, accepting rules and wishing to explore himself.

Don't forget that Athletics, different from other sports, has one exclusive stimulus : THE PERSONAL MEASURABLENESS.

So, also for top Champions, THE REAL MOTIVATION IS TO IMPROVE THEMSELVES. Of course, when they are able to reach the top level, they go to compete WITH other strong athletes (NOT AGAINST), having better stimula for confirming their progresses.

Renato Canova wrote:

ALL THE BEST AFRICAN RUNNERS can enhance, after 3-4 months of Aerobic Training at high level, their global volume of blood of 20-25%. This means that they can run WITH ONE LITER OF BLOOD MORE IN THEIR CIRCULATORY SYSTEM, increasing in absolute natural way their ability in transporting Oxygen.

.

...so east africans do have a genetic advantage?

Not that this is your main point, but it may be the bigger point.

This just in: Life Isn't Fair. Mats Nilsson reporting, News At 11.

Renato Canova wrote:

I never said that top athletes don't use doping.

Yes you did. You said that only second level athletes use doping, not the top ones, what is the same.

Do I need to post what you said on this same board ?

You also said , and you still insist, that drug doesn’t enhance the performance of a top athlete.

We may trust in what you say as we may trust in your sport ethic and sincerity and I trust that your athletes as many others they are clean.

However facts are facts not fiction as you use to say. The fact is that top athletes are able to enhance their performance as result of drugs. Can’t deny this, It’s a fact. What would done Marta or Bezabeh the last European cross country win without drugs ?

The fact is that many top athletes did the performances that they did due to the help of drug substances. Many athletes wouldn´t done top performances without drug help.

It´s a fact.

There are runners, also in Europe and US, that can have the same physiological quality of the best Africans. For example, in Italy we had Genny Di Napoli (at 20 years able to defeat Sebastian Coe in 1988 running 3'32"98) and Francesco Bennici (big talent, never having continuity in training, and very fragile in his knees) that were like the top African runners. And, speaking about US, do you think Jim Ryun didn't have the same quality (also if, 43 years ago, nobody knew anything about this possibility, tested by the great Scientist Saltin using Nuclear Magneto Resonance).

The real problem is : in Kenya and Ethiopia, 50% of young people try to run, because they hope to have the talent for becoming a champion for changing their life. In US and Europe, HOW MANY YOUNG PEOPLE TRY TO BECOME RUNNERS ?

May be that 0,01 % of boys and girls try to run for having results (not for their fitness).

And, another point : in Kenya or Ethiopia, young runners train together with models that are top athletes, train very hard, so they, from their beginning, know THAT IF YOU WANT TO BECOME A TOP RUNNER, YOU NEED TO RUN NOT LESS THAN 180 KM PER WEEK WHEN YOU ARE STILL VERY YOUNG. So, their mentality is already for training hard, because this type of training is what they know from their beginning.

Instead, in the School in US or in the activity for young athletes in Europe, the EXAMPLE (or the MODEL) are athletes with little training, and mentally is more difficult, also when we find a top talent, to move him to the right quantity and intensity of training.

So, I continue to think that the difference depends on SOCIAL and ENVIRONMENTAL situation, rather than GENETIC situations.

Mats, this is not 'Nam. This is track and field. There are rules.

Seriously, there are differences in genetics, opportunity, and experience between the athletes in any race, but to have any kind of meaningful competition you have to have rules. The rules set the factors that aren't variable (track length, equipment, etc.) so that you can have a competition in the factors that are variable (speed, endurance, tactical ability, etc.).

Once you allow doping, you effectively require doping for anyone who wants to be competitive. Track and field has quite correctly decided that a competition between who can become the most doped-up freak is a competition not worth having. Bodybuilders may feel differently for their "sport," but I don't think most people in T&F and most fans of T&F share that view. I certainly don't.

Mats,

While I agree with most of your points, I have to say that Cesar Perez was definitely not regarded by everyone at UTEP as the hard working and nice guy you describe him as. No need to give details on here, but also no need to paint an overly pretty picture. I am sure that some that knew him are not shocked to see his name as one of those involved in this scandal.

People are 'jumping the gun' again. Dominguez is not guilty of doping in this case, but possibly guilty of facilitating doping, to some athletes. So it is 'guilt by association' but as far as we know, she took nothing illicit herself, and is clean.

With regard to Bezabeh, there is no proof, yet, that he doped, but it looks like he may have been coerced into saying that he possibly consumed something illicit. You have to remember that Bezabeh came from an impoverished background in Ethiopia, and is only semi literate, if that, and does not know his rights. He may have been coerced. It looks like he is a convenient scapegoat. Easy target.

Reyes Estevez, he has been around so long and tested zillions of times. Why would he dope, now, at the end of his career, when he is well past his best. He ran for years, at high level, and always passed with flying colors.

Those athletes will probably be vindicated. Let us not jump to conclusions.

Ghost in Saudi,

www.kfupm.edu.sa

, apply today.

Something doesn't become a fact just because YOU say it is. If you say something is a fact often enough or forcefully (loudly) enough, I guess it becomes so in your mind. You want to believe that ALL these elites are doping, and some assuredly are, but you (as many on here as well) haven`t a clue (beyond mere innuendo) who these people actually are.

This all reminds of the days post-war when all non-americans were dirty wops(Iti`s), japs or germans - they were no longer people but just embodiments of a prejudiced mindset. A similar thing seems to be happening here - where all foreigners must be dopers (Spain, Portugal, Italy ,etc.) or they could not possibly compete at the same level as Americans. The Finns went through the same thing (blood-doping) in the 1970`s. Yet somehow one is supposed to believe that all american successes (see Oregon groups) are squeaky clean!

Ghost, you're right, they're all clean, none of them would ever dope, ever. The police just detained a pregnant woman and searched her house for no good reason, i'm sure she just distributes drugs of course and never took any herself during her own career which featured amazing performances interspersed with very very rare appearances on the european circuit. The wicked spanish police made poor bezabeh lie about doping because he's of african origin and can't stick up for himself, estevez passed many tests so therefore he is unquestionably clean, no matter what they say about his coach or what documents they find. They don't matter! All those bags of blood in the freezer they found were just turtle blood, they're mimicking the wonders of ma's army in spain. That's it. Move along. Nothing to see here.

I said that THE BEST AFRICAN RUNNERS DON'T USE DOPING. The point is : when I say that TOP CHAMPIONS (with special qualities) cannot have any advantage from THIS KIND of doping (because, for example, is some of them wants to use steroids, can of sure have some advantage : but we speak about blood doping, now), may be we have a different idea about the level of these athletes.

Marta Dominguez was, for about 13 years, one of the best runners in 5000m, able to win a lot of medals. Do you know her position in the All-Time list for the event (PB 14'48"33) ? Position 80. Position 80 means you are a TOP CHAMPION (with superior qualities), or a VERY GOOD ATHLETE, coming from a high but not exceptional physiological background ?

About steeple, don't compare the technical value of this event with the ABSOLUTE value of 5000m. Let me speak about an event that I well know : the first gold in WCh in this event in 2005 was from a my athlete (Dorcus Inzikuru) and the bronze from another my athlete (Jeruto Kiptum), and in Berlin I had other 2 athletes in the final (Ruth Bosibori and Gladys Kipkemboi), and I well know the value of those athletes in a flat competition. If an athlete like Dibaba or Defar or, also, Vivian Cheruiyot, interested in this event and with a good technique, was interested in running fast, the WR could be, at the moment, under 8'50" without any problem.

The athletes that cannot have any advantage from the blood doping are the real African Elite, able to obtain top results with an organisation of their professional activity very poor and naive, due to the objective conditions of their life.

Florence Kiplagat was able to win WCCCh in 2009 exactly one year after giving birth to a baby girl, dramatically improving in a short period of 6 months (from Oct 2008 to March 2009), and after less than 3 months ran 10000m in 30'11": where she was six months before ? Silas Kiplagat ran last year in 28'00" a race of 10 km on the road, and this year, in one month, moved from 3'38" to 3'29"27: where he was 3 months before ? Wilson Kiprop prepared a Marathon for 9th of May in Prague running 2:09:09, and after 47 days ran 27'26" in altitude, won African Championships beating Kipsiro in the last lap, won Lille HM in 59'39" and finally defeated Zersenay Tadese (undefeated in the last 4 years) in WHMCh : where he was last year ?

These are the athletes that cant have any advantage, because these are the REAL talent. In this category we can put Gebre and Bekele, Shaheen and Rudisha, Dibaba and Defar, Ezekiel Kemboi and Nancy Lagat, Janet Jepkosgei and Vivian Cheruiyot, Lineth Masai and, in the past, Zola Budd, Jim Ryun, Peter Snell, Herb Elliot, Filbert Bayi, Henry Rono, Miruts Yifter and many others.

Marta Dominguez, and Alemayehu Bezabeh, and Alberto Garcia and the current European runners are not part of this category. For this type of talent, blood doping can work. But, when I say that, if you want to find somebody drugged, you need to search out of top 10, is exactly what I think. Because I know what is possible to do having the real talent, and the most part of people never could see somebody with these kind of attitude.