Lukas who? Japanese high school kid runs 28:23 10k!!!!

The Japanese education system is designed to find the best and the brightest. The best from the elementary schools go to the best high schools and then to the best universities. Those that have been plucked from the masses are of course very bright and they do great things at Toyota etc. But the 98% that don't go to the top universities are basically thrown away and trained to be worker bees. The purpose of universities is not to educate but to sift through the millions of students to find the best.

There are too many myths that portray the Japanese educational system as superior to the West. As Bob said the elementary school system is relatively good but in my opinion it is terrible from junior high through high school.

Bob Dobbs wrote:

Japanese kids still do pretty well in international math, science, and computer programming competitions. That requires the ability to solve problems independently. The engineers designing products for companies like Toyota, Sony, and Nintendo obviously learned something in school, so they weren't all spending their college days and nights getting wasted in the izakayas.

And they start college far ahead of US kids when it comes to math and science.

Good points, and well taken. But, do notice that what you specify, math, science, and computer programming, are practically by definition things that lend themselves more towards what can be learned and exploited in a "rote" manner. There is nothing wrong with that, of course, and in fact is good. My opinion, and why I don't like the education system here overall, is that if the more basic and fundamental ideas underlying a subject, the reasoning which is foundational to it, can be understood, one can exploit their knowledge in that area even more so.

.Brent wrote:

Good points, and well taken. But, do notice that what you specify, math, science, and computer programming, are practically by definition things that lend themselves more towards what can be learned and exploited in a "rote" manner.

That's not even close to correct.

The American University system is amazing, with regard to both the academics and also the athletics. The NCAA is so much better than anything else and will pretty much always be as there is so much money and tradition. Also there are some of the strongest universities with the world best and brightest.

However, have you ever thought that many don't want to go to american universities where it is setup much more like high school in the undergraduate years with rules and restrictions which are endless compared to many universities throughout the world.

I can tell you now many don't want to be in dorms or doing homework till they are 22. The would much rater be assessed 3 or 4 times per paper and have the ability to show up to class as they please.

However, the american setup is probably not the major factor why many Japanese do not come.

Also 21 is a long time to have to wait to have a beer in a pub

There are many reasons Japanese runners don't come to the US.

1. To work at a top Japanese company, it is better to graduate from a Japanese university.

2. They lack the English and academic skills. Many of the top runners have graduated from sports factories where academics aren't stressed. It would be a giant jump to go to an American university.

3. They don't want to go to a foreign country. Many/ Most Japanese are uncomfortable around foreigners so it would be a giant cultural leap.

4. Japanese high school runners who are running at a high level are fantasizing on their runs about running in the famous ekidens not running in the NCAA's.

5. If they have a very successful collegiate career in Japan they have the chance to run professionally for a company team.

I think it's fair to say that Japanese universities aren't terribly strenuous, whereas high school is. In America, university is a jump up from high school. I don't think it's reasonable to portray the Japanese as simpletons who can only remember, when American university students as a whole (ie not just the elite universities) aren't intellectual titans themselves.

No, it is not incorrect. But, if you feel it is, then correct it.

Does, for example, a calculator know that two plus two equals four? That can be answered two ways. Not to be too Clintonesque, but it depends on what "know" means. In one sense the calculator knows two plus two, but it certainly doesn't understand it. Likewise, just because people know math it doesn't necessarily follow that they understand it.

Now, simple math is so blatantly obvious that you can hardly miss the understanding of it. However, when you get to more complicated stuff, it is easier to learn the formula to get the correct answer than to really understand why it works. For math itself it isn't really a problem, but it becomes one when trying to apply deductive reasoning skills in other areas, which was my main point.

That is for math, but the same applies for science and computer programming. Japanese are notorious for refining technological advances to the nth degree, but not so much for things completely or even fairly novel.

Oh! And I am not bashing Japanese and don't remotely think of them as simpletons. We can learn a lot from them, and memorizing things is certainly a beneficial endeavor.

Again, they have been taught that they need to be taught, and they aren't supposed to figure things out on their own (sadly).

I remember my jaw dropping to my chest when I asked my H.S. aged English student to summarize a pretty good sized piece of text she had just finished reading in English, and she recited it almost verbatim! Unfortunately, I could ask her any one of the questions from the text and she wouldn't be able to give me an answer for herself. She could only give me the same answer that was in the text.

First, I can tell you never got past calculus in college because you thing everything in math is plug-and-chug. Second, you haven't taken a single programming course in your life. If you think programming is so "rote", go to the IBM ACS website and solve a single one of those problems with nothing but a whiteboard and computer. I rest my case.

ya..... wrote:

First, I can tell you never got past calculus in college because you thing everything in math is plug-and-chug. Second, you haven't taken a single programming course in your life. If you think programming is so "rote", go to the IBM ACS website and solve a single one of those problems with nothing but a whiteboard and computer. I rest my case.

Right on both counts, sort of. Actually, I never got in to calculus. But, I don't mean to imply that there is zero degree of reasoning skills involved in any of the three disciplines, nor that to do them well you don't need to have good reasoning skills. I said that those three lend themselves towards being able to be learned in a rote manner, and then exploited to good effect (at least that's what I was trying to say/imply).

Math, to me, forms the basis of all logic and reasoning, and so it seems paradoxical to suggest that one could be good at it and at the same time not be good at reasoning. However, again, my calculator example. I know that people are not calculators, but the example is only meant to show that the possibility exists. Surely no normal person would know basic math and have no true reasoning skills. But, it doesn't necessarily follow that even a person who is good at math has good reasoning skills. Exhibit a.) Rainman. OK, he isn't normal, but again, the possibility.

To put it in a nutshell, surely with increased ability in the three subjects, math, science, and computer programming, there will be an increased level of ability in reasoning skills. What I would like to say is that I think, in general, Japanese tend to lag in reasoning skills in proportion to their abilities in those areas.

I almost hate saying these things because it sounds like I'm bashing Japanese, but that isn't the case.

US secondary ed is the worst in the developed world. highest illiteracy rate, highest segregation rate, highest dropout rate, highest murder rate, highest unqualified teacher rate, lowest per student spending. what trash !

.Brent wrote:

Japanese are notorious for refining technological advances to the nth degree, but not so much for things completely or even fairly novel.

Yes, that is the stereotype. But the number of Nobel prizes awarded to Japanese in recent years, particularly in physics and chemistry, puts the lie to that.

A recent example is Kyoto Daigaku's Shinya Yamanaka. He hasn't won a Nobel for his work yet (although he did win the prestigious Lasker Award last year), but Yamanaka recently developed a genetic reprogramming technique that turns ordinary somatic cells (e.g., skin cells) into stem cells. That's fantastically innovative science, and it could well render moot the debate in the US over embryonic stem cell research.

I think some westerners may allow their limited notions of creativity and innovation to deceive them.

lousy US wrote:

US secondary ed is the worst in the developed world. highest unqualified teacher rate, lowest per student spending. what trash !

not at all true.

mathematics and science involve a great deal of creativity when you are talking about American colleges, which really emphasize figuring problems out for yourself, rather than memorizing formulas and solutions. We would be set a task and have to figure out the formulas and the ways of thinking about the problems ourselves. In my one computer science class, the professor was utterly incompetent at teaching and told us nothing, and the book virtually told us nothing, so the onus was on those who already knew how to program to figure out how to program in a different language (PASCAL).

Do they have multiple tracks? Running 35 heats of the 5k is going to take like 10 hours or so and that is assuming the slowest runners are around 15 mins.

been to japan wrote:

go japan go wrote:

"The Nittai Time Trials continue tomorrow with 35 heats of 5000 m."

Seriously?

yes, ppl take running seriously there, and unlike in the us, they don't believe in limiting track meets to a heat or 3

Good stuff again, Bob. It would certainly be a losing proposition for me to suggest that there are not many brilliant Japanese. I will, however, stick to my assertion that, in general, Japanese lag in reasoning skills, at least in proportion to their apparent academic abilities. This is an interesting topic and has caused me to do some thinking, and one more not so insignificant reason for the lag in general reasoning skills is that the culture tends to deter it. You are not supposed to be different in Japan, to speak up, etc. It therefore is also a simple lack of practice problem, and not ability per se.