A.J., he no wanna run the Steeple...

malmo wrote:

jkjoregon wrote:

It was quite clear if you were actually at the meet that he dropped out because it was PLANNED. He looked quite pleased with his effort and he looked good!

A 9:35 steeplechaser running 2000m, 'PLANNED', as you say, at 9:05 pace, then extrapolating it to a magic 8:50, or even 8:40, is akin to a 4:00 1500 runner running 2:32 for 1000m (3:48 pace), dropping out, then projecting his time to 3:42.

The dots don't connect.

Not exactly malmo and you know a little better than that. With the steeple hurdle form and water pit form are good indicators of how someone is doing later in the race. You can see a pretty obvious change in form over the barriers and water jump in a steeple. The athlete can still be on pace when the form goes, but you know the splits are going to slow soon. You know what I'm talking about, exaggerating the water jump only to land shorter in the water and struggle out of the pit, a short hurdle follow by a couple quick steps to get back on the pace/pace. Those are obvious signs and AJ was nowhere near that point past 2K. AJ was at about 6:10 with less than 1K to go (at the 200 meter start where he pulled out). Not sure exactly how much distance is left with that inside water pit but I believe those are about 380-385 meter laps but the point is he was on 9:00 pace and he had plenty of running left in his legs.

That alone is a pretty big improvement from his last steeple.

I think there is a couple different arguments here.

One is that AJ is being squeezed into the steeple simply for point scoring reasons by the coaches. How do we know that AJ is not seeking this out? They guy undoubtedly gets run into the track by Centro and Wheating on 1500 meter work and he's probably confident that if he can ever stay with them up to 1200-1300 meters it's a lost cause anyway. Add to that what Mac Fleet is capable of (beat him at indoor NCAA's, ran a faster mile indoors than AJ ever has, was the man of the meet at Penn despite AJ's strong showing. So if you show up to a time trial with your own team and PR and still wind up 4th 3 out of 5 times isn't that trying to shove a round peg through a square hole?

What is 3:39 going to get AJ at the collegiate or national level that at an 8:45 wont? The fact is, if he can run under 8:50 and has a better kick than most of the steeplers at NCAA's he has a better chance to score big points than in the 1500. He has 3 guys from his own team who can keep him out of the final. Granted on a dream day he may get a medal, he could also PR and get 7th or 8th.

In the steeple, if AJ can stay in the hunt up to 2 laps to go anything can happen. It seems like about half of the guys in the steeple who run in the 8:40's during the season can't break 9:00 by NCAA's on the regular. This is going to be Eugene, in front of his home crowd. IF AJ is in position to score in the top 5 in the steeple over the last 1K he's going to hear a lot of noise, crazy noise, and it will be for him. Rather than be one of the guys in the 1500 (hopefully) and not responsible for any big points AJ can be THE MAN for Oregon in the steeple. Perhaps that's what he's thinking. Can't blame him.

What's wrong with having him go for it at Pac-10's and see how he ends up? If he's in it to win it we have our answer. If he's a distant 5th, you stick with the 1500.

All we know is AJ is dying to come back home to SD. he has another year to finish then can return.

It seems a little late in the collegiate career to be experimenting with AJ.

I generally agree with most of your opinions and you have forgotten more about the steeple than I know. But I do think that Robert Gary has really produced or coached many runners into talented steeplers. Considering what he gets and how many have improved in the steeple, there is a little more going on there than DNA.

malmo wrote:

AJ Nationales wrote: AJ was 6:03 at the 2k mark, than means he would have to run 8:21 pace over the last kilo to finish in 8:50. Not going to happen.

Very good observation. If he's going to run 8:50 he'd better be at least 5:52 at the 2000 mark. He isn't going to be running 8:21 pace over that final two laps any time soon.

It's called finishing. 9:00 is :72 pace per 400. It's not hard to make up a lot of ground of :72 pace if you are able to run 3:39 or 13:50 (12.5 laps at 66 second pace).

Despite hurling and taking the water pit, the pace itself at 9:00 is quite slow. You close in 71, 66 for your last 2 laps and you have an 8:53.

malmo wrote:

Believe what you wanna believe kid. Talent for the steeplechase shows early.

Malmo i usually agree with you, but you're wrong here (at least I worded that very kindly!). yes, talent for the steeple will show early, but form and technique and having your legs simply used to hurdling when tired will go a long way. you can't simply shrug that off and say "you have it or you don't".

Oregon doesn't know how to train their kids. Thus, they can't learn to do a new event. They rely on talent alone.

No I don't know what you're talking about. This is the first I've heard of this theory. The final k of the steeple is entirely different than the first 2k. The barriers get higher and fatigue comes out of nowhere. It's a rude awakening for dilettantes. Form isn't a problem, fatigue is. The steeplechase has its own unique kind of fatigue.

The only difference I see between his last race and this one is that in this one he didn't drop out at 3000m.

This isn't difficult to figure out. There are 7 1/2 laps in the steeplechase. 7 water jumps, that means you divide the difference between the steeplechase start and the 3000m start by 7. The first lap is 400m, the start and 400m point are the same. After that, move down the track 1/7 of the way to get 400m splits. 4/7 down the track is the 2000m mark. 1/7=800, 2/7=1200, 3/7=1600, got it?

There's nothing wrong with him running the steeplechase. He hasn't even run faster than 9:30 and already you're talking Nationals? Doesn't that seem way over the top?

former 8:4X guy wrote:

It's called finishing. 9:00 is :72 pace per 400. It's not hard to make up a lot of ground of :72 pace if you are able to run 3:39 or 13:50 (12.5 laps at 66 second pace).

Despite hurling and taking the water pit, the pace itself at 9:00 is quite slow. You close in 71, 66 for your last 2 laps and you have an 8:53.

He hasn't broken 9:30, not good at all, and has shown that he's afraid of the barriers. This is not a recipe for running away from people. If he can't handle 9:30 pace what makes you think he's suddenly going to start running 66's? His 3:39 1500 is meanlingless in the Steeplechase. No if he's already run 8:30 rather than 9:30, then drops a 3:39, that entirely different. Are you really not grasping this?

Branden Bethke was in the same boat, flat times WAY better than anyone he was racing, yet he was left in the dust at the end of his steeplechases. Once he got away from the steeplechase he bacame what he was capable of at Wisconsin -- one of the best college 4k runners in the nation.

malmo wrote:

There's nothing wrong with him running the steeplechase. He hasn't even run faster than 9:30 and already you're talking Nationals? Doesn't that seem way over the top?

Perhaps, but schools like weber state have taken 9:30 steeplers to 8:50 like a factory and most of those guys had their teqnique ironed out before opening day freshman year.

malmo wrote:

The final k of the steeple is entirely different than the first 2k. The barriers get higher and fatigue comes out of nowhere. It's a rude awakening for dilettantes. Form isn't a problem, fatigue is. The steeplechase has its own unique kind of fatigue.

QFE. This is why I don't think we can rule Acosta out in the steeple (quite) yet. Three things make a great steepler: 1) the physical ability to run a fast 3k, 2) the physical ability to efficiently clear the barriers, and 3) the mental ability to do both through the end of a brutal race. I'm not a huge AJ fan but he clearly has #1 and probably #3. I'd say he's facing longer learning curve than most on #2 but if he pulls it together he could still do some great things.

former 8:4X guy wrote:

Perhaps, but schools like weber state have taken 9:30 steeplers to 8:50 like a factory and most of those guys had their teqnique ironed out before opening day freshman year.

I have no idea how that relates to Acosta?

I started out as a 8:52 guy and four years later I was an 8:22. I don't see anything out of the ordinary about 9:30 guys eventually becoming 8:50 runners. How many of them were running 3:39 when they were at 9:30. You and I both know the answer, don't we?

compared to

This much is evident, as much as he stuttered in the more recent steeple, his timing and water jumps still look VASTLY improved. It's pretty clear he was instructed not to lead and to drop just after the 2K/200 meter start. He actually appears to get into his groove over the 2nd 1000 meters and looks better than the first. Over several of the hurdles and water barriers he comes in from behind and nearly comes out ahead of the leaders, and then clearly slows down. Not much to suggest that last 1000 fatigue was anywhere near creeping up on him at 9:00 pace.

Lets hope he races at Pac-10s since there are 8:4X guys there.

1 Sullivan, John JR-3 Stanford 8:47.35 Stanford Payton Jordan C... 05/01/10

2 Sodaro, Steve JR-3 California 8:48.32 Cal vs. Stanford Big Mee... 04/10/10

3 Knight, Dylan JR-3 UCLA 8:48.84 Oregon vs. UCLA 04/17/10

4 Ahlbeck, Sam SR-4 Washington St. 8:49.88 Stanford Invitational 03/26/10

5 MacArthur, Brian JR-3 Arizona 8:58.54 Stanford Invitational 03/26/10

6 Johnson, Benjamin SO-2 Stanford 8:58.92 Stanford Payton Jordan C... 05/01/10

former streaker wrote:

QFE. This is why I don't think we can rule Acosta out in the steeple (quite) yet. Three things make a great steepler: 1) the physical ability to run a fast 3k, 2) the physical ability to efficiently clear the barriers, and 3) the mental ability to do both through the end of a brutal race. I'm not a huge AJ fan but he clearly has #1 and probably #3. I'd say he's facing longer learning curve than most on #2 but if he pulls it together he could still do some great things.

You enumerate three things but left off the most important:

1) steeplechase aptitude. The ability to handle running after jumping.

2) flat 3000 ability. it is a running event after all.

3) hurdle efficiency. Dan Lincoln if proof you don't have to be the most efficient over the barriers, just the most efficient between the barriers.

[4]) "the mental ability to do both through the end of a brutal race." I think what you're trying to say is the steeplechase requires a unique kind of concentration that doesn't exist in any other track and field event. This goes back to my point #1. In order to be a competitive steeplechaser you have a heightened awareness, be completely focused and spatially aware of your physical relationship to both the rapidly approaching barriers and to the competitors around you, and the split second decisions you'll need to make to come through cleanly. Basically you have to wrap yourself in a solipsistic bubble and constantly monitor a meter behind you, a meter to both sides, and everything and everyone 10-15 meters in front of you. When a barrier approaches your area of focus becomes small, and while the periphery whites out you're still keenly aware of it. There's no other way for me to describe it.

When that last lap comes and all hell is wreaking havoc on your body, your mind better be focused on each barrier as if it is the last barrier you will ever run, because if you don't, it WILL be the last barrier you'll ever run.

A slower runner with ironed out steeple technique and a flat 3K of 8:20 (at best) has a lot less upside in the steeple than a 7:55 3K runner who hit the same start point (9:30) in the steeple completely raw with a lot of upside on steeple technique.

Put simply, AJ very well could have more upside than these guys who get down to 8:50.

And yes, I understand the aptitude thing. AJ easily hung on at 9:00 pace like he was starting a workout. He has enough aptitude.

trialswatcher wrote:

People that contiually kill Acosta on here make me sick.

Coming out of HS as an 8:40's mid to high two miler and a FL guy, I am wondering how many thought he would go 3:39 and make finals left and right and run legs on national type DMRs almost all the time.

He was a 3:46 guy once if that at HS level.

What the heck do you want, he make mile finals, 1500 finals and runs 3:39.x, plus big leg at Penn.

Look at his record, forget XC, he has never been what I thought he would be there either, but on the track?

Stop with the bull shit, his record is better than folks that should be killing people.

Just for the record, I am an AJ fan, and previous to inside details that he was pacing and training through the race...with the past 9:35 or whatever, and knowing his injury history, I was wondering how wise it was for Vin to try and convert AJ at such a late date...

It could backfire; for instance: Is Fleet ready to run heats and a final?

Why not focus on training AJ up to get to the 3:55 level?

For all we know AJ volunteered to give the Steeple a try.

Also, I've seen him listed as a JR and a SR, so which is he???

Yeah I guess I oversimplified. In your experience can your last point be taught/learned or has that ship already sailed for Acosta?

I don't think people are saying he'll never run sub-9:00, I think what they're saying is "why do this when he's already run 3:39?" I don't know. But a lot of you sound like you're imitating the Alan Webb relaxed 1500 time trial thread. Subtract 10 seconds for maintaining good hurdle form, subtract 5 seconds for talking to other runners immediately before dropping out, etc.

So Cal wrote:

All we know is AJ is dying to come back home to SD. he has another year to finish then can return.

Sh*t, I'M dying to return to San Diego, and I've never lived there.

Who wouldn't want to?

Every California beach town dude who ever ran for Oregon was dying to return to the Cali sun, Cali women, and Cali beaches after 4 years in Eugene.

This is why AJ and Mac Daddy are studs, stretching themselves to run in a new climate and excel. Takes a little extra character building something to slog through some Eugene winters. (Same for Jordan Hasay, running in a totally different climate for her.)

But most of them were honored to wear the OREGON or O on their chest and be A MAN OF OREGON.

Plus, it is good to live in a different climate, different community a few times in your life.

You think Garmin Fernandez isn't Jonesing for S. Cali?

How many people, ten years after their college career is over, actually remember the weather on any given day of training in college?

You remember your friends, crazy college times, best races, best romances...ya don't remember the weather!

Out-of-Wedlock Danny wrote:

acosta did go 2k. looked smooth. he'll be 8.40 or better when he really wants to get after it next attempt. great TEAM player attitude

http://www.oregonlive.com/trackandfield/index.ssf/2010/05/oregon_track_field_aj_acosta_s.html

People focus on the steeple. Its not like no one cares and then all of the sudden they hop in a race towards NCAA. Acosta is a good 1500 man, have him focus on that, which they will. He's horrible at the steeple. It is what it is.