Who is more talented? German Fernandez or Dathan Ritzenhein?

haha, YO wrote:

Ritz didn't have the wheels to run sub 8:40 in high school. He was an aerobic beast, that's why his 5k was so great.

You know he ran 8:41 as a junior in high school... He could have broken that 2 mile record if he wanted to go after it. 3rd at World junior xc is far better than German's 8:34.

Before age 20:

German F.

-more speed

-larger room for improvement

-H.S. national record

-NCAA champ

Ritz

-more endurance

-higher pain tolerance

-more diverse

-bronze jr. WC championship medal

-2x footlocker national champ

hmmmmmm close call, but I may have to go with Ritz because his xc credentials are far superior to German, where Germans Track credentials are only slightly better. Also note that Ritz missed his entire Sophomore campaign due to injury.

ooops, should have said "He should have broken that 2 mile record"

I just remember German beating Chad Hall (Footlocker champ the following year) in the Cal State Meet, and German didn't even know who Chad Hall was, nor did German do any summer training. Just went out for running for the first time, and winds up with the state title. Also, I remember he was coming off of knee surgery as a junior, and jumps in half marathon for fun, and after starting really slow (6:30) picks up the pace and finishes on average of 5:12ish and qualifies for national half-marathon championships as a junior in high school. That seems like more talent to me.

literalist wrote:

German ran faster at 2 miles in high school. Freshman year he ran faster 3k indoors and a faster 5k outdoors. His mile and 1500 pr's are already faster than Ritz's lifetime marks. So I think it's fair to say German is the more talented middle distance runner up to 3k.

I think you've forgotten that Ritz has an 8:11 2 mile to his credit too. Fernandez is nowhere near that.

mama mia wrote:

Here's another cool quote by Ritz from high school:

(On Jeff Nelson's 2-mile record) - "I have had my eye on that for two years and I really want it." He wanted it. He went for it. He never got it.

Yeah, I want it too, but I'm not training for it.

BTW, two key performances were left out.

Ritz was overshadowed at the time by Teg's American record run, but his 8:11.74 2 mile run in 2007 was just short of Webb's previous American record of 8:11.48. To me that was his real breakthrough performance, proving he has the crucial speed needed to compete with the world's elite, and leaving me unsurprised that he eventually got the 5000 record.

And how can anyone forget German's breakthrough performance at the CA state meet, his historic 1600/3200 double? Running two races that fast, that close together, will probably remain unsurpassed for a while, unless Lukas Verzbicas puts one together.

alyosha wrote:

I just remember German beating Chad Hall (Footlocker champ the following year) in the Cal State Meet, and German didn't even know who Chad Hall was, nor did German do any summer training. Just went out for running for the first time, and winds up with the state title. Also, I remember he was coming off of knee surgery as a junior, and jumps in half marathon for fun, and after starting really slow (6:30) picks up the pace and finishes on average of 5:12ish and qualifies for national half-marathon championships as a junior in high school. That seems like more talent to me.

I PROMISE you Ritz could have run 5:12 pace for a half marathon in high school if he gave a crap about it.

Didn't Ritz win the 2 mile outdoors as a sophomore?

I'm not denying German's talent, but I'm not denying Ritz's either.

Bruce Fordyce wrote:

I think you've forgotten that Ritz has an 8:11 2 mile to his credit too. Fernandez is nowhere near that.

I haven't forgotten anything. I'm not including all of Ritz's pr's or I would have said he is the better distance runner based on his 12:56, 27:22, 60:00, and 2:10. At this point we can only compare their high school performances, freshman year, and sophomore year through February of the indoor season.

Based on that specific evidence, Fernandez looks like the more talented middle distance runner up to 3k. There is not enough evidence to make a statement about 5k, 10k, half, and marathon.

Ritz could probably have run 5 minute pace for a HM in high school.

I honestly don't see any reason why Dathan couldn't have run under the HS two mile record if he wasn't so busy training for US champs and helping his team win state championships.

I watched him run 8:41-8:43 completely alone on two occasions. However, I believe German ran 8:34 basically alone as well.

Dathan also ran 4:05.9 alone at his league meet as a junior. I bet he could have run 4:00 and 8:34 if he really tried for it(maybe not in a double). I think Dathan stayed away from the mile because Alan Webb was so much better than him at it. There's a couple interviews I've read where Dathan insists that he "isn't the same runner as Webb" and can't run the mile. Obviously he wasn't 3:53 good, but he could have run at least as fast as Ryan Hall...

Jeez, a lot of revisionist history in this thread. Why don't we stick to the times actually run instead of making excuses on Ritz's behalf. Every runner has a history in which things could have gone better, but you don't get to make up theoretical times.

These comments miss the point about what makes a champion. Talent in the raw does not go very far.

In highschool, a teammate of mine practised once or twice a week at most and posted these times: 16:50 cross country, 4:21 mile, 1:54 800m, 48.xx 400m, and 47.4 anchor.

I believe he had the "talent" to be one of the greatest champions in Ohio history, but who cares - he blew it.

To me - it is about championships and not records. Webb has oodles of talent - pound for pound at his physical best he should be able to run El G or Lagat type times - but he is a wreck.

I saw that spark in Ritz's eyes in his super-5k, and because of that I believe he is currently the best American distance runner. So my point is talent/schmalent.

CLown Shoes wrote:

You know he ran 8:41 as a junior in high school... He could have broken that 2 mile record if he wanted to go after it. 3rd at World junior xc is far better than German's 8:34.

He ran 8:48 for 2 mile, 8:41 for 3200 which is worth about 8:44 for two mile. Which ended up being his PR as a senior. Fernandez ran 8:34 all alone after coming back from a 4:00 1600. And also ran all alone for an 8:34 two mile. People can't just act like Ritz didn't care in HS, he did, Fernandez was a much better HS track runner (senior years at least).

Impossible to tell. Ritzenhein has had more years to develop than Fernandez has.

They both have ridiculous talent. Comparisons are silly. Webb had more talent than either of them in high school, but hasn't figured out how to train consistently or doesn't have the head to race or both. Webb could have the ARs from the mile to the 5,000 if he really wanted to. Maybe the 10,000 as well. And then there's this kid named Rupp who ran a faster 5k than any of them as a prep.

Per Son wrote:

I saw that spark in Ritz's eyes in his super-5k, and because of that I believe he is currently the best American distance runner. So my point is talent/schmalent.

You believe that Ritz is the best American distance runner because his eyes were sparkly?

You also don't think talent is important? That's great, but not the point of this thread.

I see German at the same age having the edge in 1500, mile, 3000, and 5000.

Don't forget, he the 6th fastest indoor mile IN THE WORLD last year.

Tough choice, isn't it?

Some of the difference may be coaching. I see Ritz as having been caught up in all that mileage crap and achieving nothing of what people thought his promise was--until Salazar brought some common sense and basically rescued his career. I think German's coaching and accomplishments have been better. If he can just stay away from XC and train more like Lagat, German will have the opportunity to accomplish something major.

Sagarin wrote:

They both have ridiculous talent. Comparisons are silly. Webb had more talent than either of them in high school, but hasn't figured out how to train consistently or doesn't have the head to race or both. Webb could have the ARs from the mile to the 5,000 if he really wanted to. Maybe the 10,000 as well. And then there's this kid named Rupp who ran a faster 5k than any of them as a prep.

Rupp ran that in like July or August going into college...he wasn't even close to high school.

trutheres wrote:

Rupp ran that in like July or August going into college...he wasn't even close to high school.

In a pro meet in Europe. Every high school runner can do that!

Coach D wrote:

If he can just stay away from XC and train more like Lagat, German will have the opportunity to accomplish something major.

Why would you say that? Just because he missed out on crucial base training last summer doesn't mean XC is bad for him, or that he's bad at it. German frequently said XC was his favorite sport, despite his greater success in track. There's no reason why he shouldn't do it. I expect he'll have several XC titles under his belt in coming years.

I think it's a damn shame we don't have our other top runners joining Ritz on the World XC team -- Meb, Teg, Rupp, Lagat, Solinsky, even Webb. World XC medals both team and individual, have always been the ultimate measure of success in international competition, as the majority of the best compete. U.S. distance will never earn respect if they shy away from this crucial event.