Why can't we just enjoy the Spaniard's performance instead of scrutinizing his progression over the years. It would be no surprise if all the top athletes are taking something. However the question is: are they taking something that is tested for or not?
tromala wrote:
slavoj zizek wrote:many (including myself) believe that Komen was doping.
Sánchez doesn't need clemency (yet), but if you are deciding who is a cheater and who is not, regarless any objective data, maybe many (including myself) can conclude that there's no point in arguing about it.
Unfortunately we often lack incontrovertible, objective data, and I don't think it is unreasonable to use rate of improvement/age/past history as proxies to determine likelihood of doping. These very proxies convinced many on this board that Ramzi was doping, and guess what, they were right! If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...
There may not be a point in arguing about this, but here we are. Message boards exist to argue about stuff that doesn't really need to be argued about.
badabeu wrote:
Bob Tahri, 5000m indoor, 13'11"13. Final verdict: talent and work during years.
It took me a while to figure out Tahri just ran this time today. That's a huge performance by Tahri and also a new European indoor record. Thus, former record holder Garcia (13:11,39) lost both his 3k and 5k records at the same weekend. Tahri's indoor 3k in 7:33 already indicated he's in great shape but this 13:11 is even better than his outdoor PR.
Results from Metz
1 13'11'13 TAHRI Bouabdellah
2 13'48'17 MEFTAH Abdellatif
3 13'55'44 CHIRCHIR Erastus (Ken)
4 14'05'22 RUKUNDO Sylvain (Uga)
5 14'32'23 ABDELGHANI Ait Bahmad (Mar)
- AB KORIR Schedrack (Ken)
- AB LE DAUPHIN Vincent
- AB TOO Julius (Ken)
jjjjjj wrote:
It´s obvious Sanchez is dirty. Drastically improved 27 years old spaniard running records race after race.
Ritz, Willard, Barringer, Vessey, Wurth Thomas much? And they all improved in the same year.
I usually defend athletes against the Letrun crowd who believe all major improvement and great performances are tainted. I guess I will defend Sergio as well because from what I know he has never had any drug suspicions other than the fact that he is running fast right now. I don't think you can indict someone simply for running fast and if that is the case why bother. If look at the stats, a lot of the world's greatest runners had a break out season; it wasn't gradual for everyone.
Although, I will admit that a lot of cheaters have come the ranks of athletes who go through periods of no testing and then start having almost super human performances like Ramzi did or Sergio who ran the last 1000 of his 3k at about the same pace Daniel Komen did and barely pauses to catch is breath.
But, like I said, you are innocent until proven guilty.
floto wrote:
Video of the race from Spanish TV:
http://www.rtve.es/deportes/20100213/sergio-sanchez-record-europa-3000/317839.shtml
Thanks for the video ----- AWESOME!
I am a Sergio Sanchez fan.
I find it hilarious that just last year the US produced 2 sub 13 men and three sub 4 women but as soon as a non-English speaking guy joins the party everyone is suspicious. Of course there is a reason for every one of those US break-throughs. They had it in them all the time, they were often injured, they changed coaches, they showed that potential back in high school, they're the hardest workers I've ever met. All things that are only granted to athletes from the US, Cananda, Australia, Britian.
Tromala
Let's take a look at the FIVE athletes you mentioned as see what they had accomplished or signficant performance BEFORE the pb's you listed:
Benjamin Limo
-he was 4th at World Short Course the year before
-he ran 13:07.38 the year prior
Eliud Kipchoge
-ran 13:48.0 at altitude at age 16
-at age 17 placed 5th at World Jr X-Country
Moses Kiptanui
-don't know why you put his name on the list they was a world class steepler (sub 8:05) before he started dropping his 3000m time you mentioned
Kenenisa Bekele
-9th World Jr X-Country at age 16
-2nd at World Youth 3000m
-2nd at World Jr Championships
Daniel Komen
-ran 3:29.46 in 1997 before he dropped his 3000m time you mentioned
As you can see all the athletes you mentioned showed some type of REAL ELITE promise before dropping their personal best you mentioned previously. So my friend you are 0 for 5 (.000%).
Yes Sergio Sanchez could be cleaned but during his WHOLE career he never hinted at the ability or had any performances that would indicate he was capable of the year he is having SO FAR in 2010.
Tromala
Oh yeah not to mentioned the athletes you previously listed had shown world class capablities (as I listed in last post) at A YOUNG AGE and then grew to the World Class/ Championship Medalist. The same can't be said for Sergio Sanchez because honestly he never showed any hint of 4:52/7:32 indoors anything close until he came out of the bottom of pack of elite athletes at age 27/28.
Still I'm not saying Sergio Sanchez is definitely dirty, JUST THAT I'm suspect due to his previous ability/performances for many years.
lets look at the reason sergio gave for his vast improvement. he said I increased my training and changed my lifestyle. he had a complete season in 2009 competing late into the season. so let's say he was training 60-70 miles a week for his base prior to his 2009 season, then competed in 2009, and before 2010 raised his mileage. in order to have any meaning improvement to his anaaerobic and aerobic abilities I assume he increased his mileage considerably to around 90-100 for his base. so inbetween October 2009 and December 2009 he increased his mileage that much without injury and found time to improve his speed from:
1500m 3:39 personal best to be able to run 3:40-42 for his last 1500 in his 7:32.41 personal best all in less than 3 months from his last competitive race in 2009 til Jan/Feb 2010? dropped his 5:06 2000m pb to 4:52, LOL!!!
http://www.tilastopaja.org/db/atm.php?ID=50803&Season=2009&Odd=1
Very interesting thread here with alot of good points. I'm really enjoying the debate between Tromala and Vipam but seems Tromala fell way behind when Vipam rebutted his listing of 6 athletes. Thanks everyone alot of interesting posts so far! Still can't make my mind up on Sergio.
Look beyond the track at all the Spanish cyclists who dope. Google Puerto affair to see how many have been busted or are under suspicion--I'm not saying American cyclists haven't doped, but the Spanish aren't clean. Even their soccer players were alleged to be doping. I think Nadal doped too, and that's why he's falling apart now.
I'd like to believe him but It's not easy.
You guys are absolutely ridiculous. You don't know his history, reading iaaf time progressions is not his history, it's just his racing history. And even that doesn't tell you the pacing of those races among numerous other factors. Last year Ritz leaves his coach, goes to Salazar who was right in the middle of Athletics West in their rip roaring years where drugs seemed to be their fad and Ritz doesn't even get a hint of suspicion as to how a guy with a 13:14 best managed to take 18 seconds off his best. Rather all you trigger happy doper accusers just jump up and start giving each other high fives. What can the guy say that'll put you at ease? He's upped his training, just because he said he runs three times a day doesn't mean that he hasn't also changed some components of his training philosophy. He's improved his diet and lifestyle. For the record I believe Dathan to be clean but I also don't see a reason to think this guy isn't clean. Potential is always there whether you realize it at 27 or 20. If Webb never really applied himself until he's in his mid to late 20s does that actually mean that he's dirty? Think about it, if Webb never killed himself in training as a teen maybe he doesn't drop his 3:46 until he's 27. Maybe he only ran 3:55ish before he trained to realize his potential. Just because he didn't show it prior doesn't mean it wasn't there. And as far as the quick recovery. That happens to a lot of greats clean or dirty. Regardless of how you get there, when you body is physically capable or running a 7:30 3000m, your lacate buffering is disgusting, a level that we probably can't even imagine. Phew! What's that saying again? Innocent until proven dirty? Think you guys got it backwards.
Poster Formerly Known asGoober wrote:
You guys are absolutely ridiculous. You don't know his history, reading iaaf time progressions is not his history, it's just his racing history. And even that doesn't tell you the pacing of those races among numerous other factors. Last year Ritz leaves his coach, goes to Salazar who was right in the middle of Athletics West in their rip roaring years where drugs seemed to be their fad and Ritz doesn't even get a hint of suspicion as to how a guy with a 13:14 best managed to take 18 seconds off his best. Rather all you trigger happy doper accusers just jump up and start giving each other high fives. What can the guy say that'll put you at ease? He's upped his training, just because he said he runs three times a day doesn't mean that he hasn't also changed some components of his training philosophy. He's improved his diet and lifestyle. For the record I believe Dathan to be clean but I also don't see a reason to think this guy isn't clean. Potential is always there whether you realize it at 27 or 20. If Webb never really applied himself until he's in his mid to late 20s does that actually mean that he's dirty? Think about it, if Webb never killed himself in training as a teen maybe he doesn't drop his 3:46 until he's 27. Maybe he only ran 3:55ish before he trained to realize his potential. Just because he didn't show it prior doesn't mean it wasn't there. And as far as the quick recovery. That happens to a lot of greats clean or dirty. Regardless of how you get there, when you body is physically capable or running a 7:30 3000m, your lacate buffering is disgusting, a level that we probably can't even imagine. Phew! What's that saying again? Innocent until proven dirty? Think you guys got it backwards.
...........
You start off by saying other posters are ridiculous, when in fact you are ridiculous. You try to argue a point that many posters are making based on facts of Sergio Sanchez performance history from a teenager til 2010. He never showed any sign of ever making it to the top tier of world class athletics.
In 2009 he never won a race and he ran many. The years before he never done anything to even make one think he could even become the best Spainard, now he's in the top 10 All-Time in both 2000m and 3000m in his first two races.
You go on to say a whole lot of what "IFs" that really amount to you saying absolutely nothing. The fact of the matter is that Sergio Sanchez went from a B or C race filler in low GP meets in October 2009 to making the All-time list whenever he runs 2-3 months later.
Ritz doesn't even get a hint of suspicion as to how a guy with a 13:14 best managed to take 18 seconds off his best.
Read more:
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=3415815&page=2#ixzz0fYNgtZxa
Buy your shoes from LetsRun and save 20% everday
How about a guy that got 3rd in WJXC as a junior behind Bekele where as Sergio got hmmm lets see 83th in the same race. Point is that Ritz 12:56 was LONG OVERDUE and he should have been under 13 min a long time ago. As other posters pointed out: Ritz, Teg even Bekele showed promise at their youth on the international stage where as Sergio didn't. And he came out the same year as those three. Now I know performing that well at a young age doesn't exclude them from the dreaded "doping conspiracy scandal" however I'm inclined to believe in the legitimacy of their performances more so than Sergio's based on what they showed us in the past.
VIPAM wrote: Sergio had to be training decently to run 7:59 two years ago and 7:43 last year so its not like he was sandbagging and decide to train seriously.
This is a classic example of circular logic. He can't be talented enough to run 7:32 because he only ran the relatively slow times of 7:43 and 7:59 in the previous two years. But his training this year can't be significantly better than it was before because he was already running the fast times of 7:43 and 7:59 the previous two years. Oh, wait...
Sanchez's improvements this year are of course highly suspicious, in the same way that anyone who makes a big leap these days is suspicious -- including Ritz, Willard, Barringer, and so on. The people trying to "explain" why Sanchez's case is different from the cases of runners they're more familiar with, on the basis of nothing beyond Sanchez's yearly progressions, are either malicious or stupid.
Suspect numero uno wrote:
Ritz doesn't even get a hint of suspicion as to how a guy with a 13:14 best managed to take 18 seconds off his best.
Read more:
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=3415815&page=2#ixzz0fYNgtZxaBuy your shoes from LetsRun and save 20% everday
http://www.letsrun.com/saveHow about a guy that got 3rd in WJXC as a junior behind Bekele where as Sergio got hmmm lets see 83th in the same race. Point is that Ritz 12:56 was LONG OVERDUE and he should have been under 13 min a long time ago. As other posters pointed out: Ritz, Teg even Bekele showed promise at their youth on the international stage where as Sergio didn't. And he came out the same year as those three. Now I know performing that well at a young age doesn't exclude them from the dreaded "doping conspiracy scandal" however I'm inclined to believe in the legitimacy of their performances more so than Sergio's based on what they showed us in the past.
That's the whole point that me and a few others are making. It's quite possible that Sanchez wasn't training at the levels that Ritzenhein was in high school. That however, does not mean that he does not possess the same relative potential to Ritz in the middle distances. And as I said earlier. We don't actually know his history, just his times. We don't know how healthy he's been in the past, we don't know how often he's actually got to race in peak shape, and we don't know how dedicated he was before. All we know is that he says he has devoted himself more so than ever before in all aspects of his training. That will almost always lead to faster times.
hold the phone and PFKAsGobber
Ritz if I'm not mistaken ran sub 8:50 for 3200m in high school, Footlocker X Champion, 3rd as a high schooler at World Junior X Championship in which Sergio Sanchez was 83rd. Anna Willard and Jenny Barringer both were either NCAA Champions or USA Champions in college and both was world class steeplers running sub 9:26 BEFORE their big breakthru of 2009. Those athletes -as well as the Six athletes another poster stated- you mentioned all showed great potential before EACH of them made huge improvements. The ability to become top tier world class athletes was shown and didn't just come out of nowhere in 3 MONTHS!
Are you two guys serious? So your saying that for 11 years since his first season as a junior athlete Sergio Sanchez has not been training seriously? That he decide to train seriously after Sept/Oct 2009 and then 3 months later drop 16 seconds from his 2000m time and SO FAR 11 seconds from his 3000m?
Sergio Sanchez ran late in 2009
1500m....mid 3:40
5000m....13:21
then two - three months after his 2009 season ends he runs 4:52 in his season indoor opener.
While he wasn't world class his sub 7:50 pb showed he had been training seriously and although its possible he could eventually get down to 7:32. Noone would expect an athlete with Serigo's entire career performance background to do so LESS THAN 3 MONTHS after his last race in 2009 in which he ran a full season and not at least be suspect!
VIPAM wrote:
While he wasn't world class his sub 7:50 pb showed he had been training seriously and although its possible he could eventually get down to 7:32.
Again here it comes. You assume he had to train seriously to get there. Now I'm not saying he wasn't serious, but he himself has admitted he is much for serious than he was ever prior. It would be like if German had only ran 8:10 last year and then now people are freaking out about he improved so drastically off of poor performances pretty recently. No, German didn't dope, he finally just performed to his potential. And it's not like it is always easy to realize... Heck, Hudson managed to surpress Ritz's for five years.
Sir you are no longer being difficult but no making yourself look stupid. Ritz ran sub 8:50 3200m as another poster stated in high school and was 3rd at WORLD Jr X showing tremendous potential. Sergio Sanchez was 83rd at the same meet and never showed any great potential til Jan 2010 out of nowhere.
In almost every case where an athlete become one of the top World Class performers they show hints somewhere in there career.
Sergio in TEN to ELEVEN years of running NEVER, EVER, not ONCE showed any potential to join 10 top ALL-TIME list. Athletes running as longs as Sergio Sanchez has been would have had a few races -okay how about ONE- somewhere to hint such was possible. He ends 2009 not even making the top 50 on any world list EVER then 3 months later he's a 4:52 2000m and 7:32 3000m man and on two top 10 ALL-TIME listings. Your continually ignore the facts everyone is stating and not offering anything new, so please Former...asGoober JUST STOP!