Sebastian Coe: 1984 Olympic 1500m

mid distance runner wrote:

Why is the finish only the last 100? who says?

when coe runs faster for the last 100 - "coe was marginally faster"

when cram runs faster for the last 200 and 400 - their times are "also very similar"

you are so biased, you can't see things objectively.

cram's first 3 laps were faster and his last lap was faster

middle distance wrote:

NO, he wasn't running faster at the FINISH, which is what you originally said. The finish to a race is the last 100m. Coe was marginally faster in the homestraight, by 0.2. Their last 200m and 400m times are also very similar. Coe's last 800m was substantially faster.

He's right!

He's saying that if you take any split over the last 4 or 500m, they only differ by a couple of tenths. But the breakdown is a bit different.

Cram went v. hard from 300 out, got gradually faster and sustained it til about 80m out, when he started slowing. His method was to hit full speed earlier and then hang on. Coe does the damage right at the end, when it hurts the most.

Have to remember that while both their last laps were close to 53, Coe's third 400 was much faster at 56.4, Cram's 58.6 for 440 (58.3 for 400m). That 3rd lap is crucial in determining what you can do on the last.

You can't really compare a grand prix race to a championship effort any way, as the latter requires different type of build up and is limited by having to run rounds.

I have no doubt given exactly same circumstances and pace as Cram had, that Coe would have been able to run same time. If it had been 81, then we're talking even faster.

Listen you two knuckleheads.

Ed Smallwood wrote:

I was sitting near the start and when Coe swept by with 300 to go he was flying like no one I've ever seen before or since.

I wrote:

You obviously have not seen Crammy's 3.46.3 mile WR - last lap in 53 - last 200 in 25.5

I pointed out a race where, as you both agree, Cram was "flying" like Coe was in LA.

End of story.

You guys then bring up Moscow, Kirov, 1979, 1981, Series of races, 1983 illness, first lap, breather lap, Cram's coach, Cram's calf etc etc

My point in my previous post is that when coe runs a fast er split, middle distance says "coe runs a faster split", when cram's run a faster split, "the times are similar" - notice the coe bias.

Cram finished faster in a faster race.[/quote]

He didn't finish faster in the 84 Olympics!!! - don't give me all that injured excuse either. Running is a physical test - and injury is a physical weakness the same as having slower leg speed

Of course Cram won the WC's, but that can't match Olympic Gold(s)

As for the Soviet's not being there - they had nobody up to Coe's level at the time

Tell us something we don't already know UKAC. You're always Captain Obvious.You had to have read the communication to between "middle distance" and myself to understand my last post."Middle distance" brought up the moscow Olympics for some reason when all I was doing was comparing the similarity of the two last laps - Cram '85 and Coe '84.But, you, like he, brings up other stuff for some reason and gets off the point of my original statement. You invite arguments that aren't there.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

He didn't finish faster in the 84 Olympics!!! - don't give me all that injured excuse either. Running is a physical test - and injury is a physical weakness the same as having slower leg speed

Of course Cram won the WC's, but that can't match Olympic Gold(s)

As for the Soviet's not being there - they had nobody up to Coe's level at the time

Serious question?

What happened to British miling (1500) anyway?

In 8 years you had 4 Olympic medalists over the distance and 3 guys hold both the mile and 1500 m record. Throw in Dave Moorcroft and you guys were sublime.

After that period you weren't even second rate for nearly 20 years.

What happened?

It was the best race ever. I was in the stands as well. Seb was being harassed by the UK press about not being good enough to be on the team. Steve Scott laid down the law with 1000 to go but it didn't work out.

At the time, Cram was considered the best 'time trial' guy - could always post great times and set records - but Coe was the best racer. Bar none.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Running is a physical test - and injury is a physical weakness the same as having slower leg speed

Hmmm

What are you talking about? Cram was World Champion, Commonwealth Champion and European Champion.

skinnbones wrote:

It was the best race ever. I was in the stands as well. Seb was being harassed by the UK press about not being good enough to be on the team. Steve Scott laid down the law with 1000 to go but it didn't work out.

At the time, Cram was considered the best 'time trial' guy - could always post great times and set records - but Coe was the best racer. Bar none.

Zat0pek wrote:

It remains the most memorable race I've ever seen . . . . . . . . . . . Coe's race will always be to me the embodiment of everything I have loved about this sport since I was 14.

Wonderful post.

Thank you Zat0pek

mid distance runner wrote:

Serious question?

What happened to British miling (1500) anyway?

In 8 years you had 4 Olympic medalists over the distance and 3 guys hold both the mile and 1500 m record. Throw in Dave Moorcroft and you guys were sublime.

After that period you weren't even second rate for nearly 20 years.

What happened?

I know this has been done to death, but it could well have been just a fluke that Coe/Ovett/Cram happened at the same time in the same country. An even better fluke would have been Coe born a couple of years earlier and Cram 4-5 years earlier but anyway......

The question is did Coe 'happen' because of Ovett? Did Cram 'happen' because of the other two? I don't think so otherwise if the UK had some magical training/cultural/structural formula they would not have declined so fast in the '90's.

Before Ovett the UK was solid but nothing special in the middle/long distances. Likewise after Seoul, until they fell off a cliff recently, which is doubtless apathy.

Coe's gesture to the stands was bush league. The race would have been different with a healthy Ovett who was after all a better runner.

What a race they would have had if they had been at their peak at the same time.

running in the clouds wrote:

Coe's gesture to the stands was bush league. The race would have been different with a healthy Ovett who was after all a better runner.

How is a gesture like that bush league? Maybe if he'd grabbed his crotch and yelled "gobble gobble motherf***ers!"

I'm really not sure why guys like to get all uppity about who ran better and speculate on all sorts of different scenarios.

The bottom line is Coe Cram and Ovett all ran great races against each other and all had their share of victories over each other at various times. Isn't that enough?

running in the clouds wrote:

Coe's gesture to the stands was bush league. The race would have been different with a healthy Ovett who was after all a better runner.

Lol! A better runner who had fewer Olympic medals, fewer world records, fewer No. 1 rankings and vastly inferior pb's over 800, 1000, 1500 & Mile.

Yeah. makes sense!

Not meaning to downgrade Ovett, who was an all-time great, but your claim he was a better runner is based on what? No statistical evidence backs up such a un-informed claim. He might have been a more exciting runner or likeable, to you, but to claim he was better is ludicrous.

If Ovett had been healthy, maybe the race would have been slightly different over the last lap. With the positions they were in with a lap to go, I think Ovett would have got by Cram in the last 100, but he sure as hell wouldn't have beaten Coe that day, even at his absolute best of 1980.

mid distance runner wrote:

What are you talking about? Cram was World Champion, Commonwealth Champion and European Champion.

Agree, Cram was a great Championship racer, at least up to '86, after which his record was very poor.

He won all that was asked of him in '82 and '83. However, both Coe and Ovett were absent in '82 and Cram's stats in those races were not impressive enough to convince anyone he'd have beaten a fully fit Coe or Ovett. Neither was Coe there in '83, but that's not Cram's fault and he was the Champion.

When it came to the most important race though, (Olympics), Coe beat both Ovett and Cram together, twice. Cram never got it right when it mattered the most.

skinnbones wrote:

It was the best race ever. I was in the stands as well. Seb was being harassed by the UK press about not being good enough to be on the team. Steve Scott laid down the law with 1000 to go but it didn't work out.

At the time, Cram was considered the best 'time trial' guy - could always post great times and set records - but Coe was the best racer. Bar none.

I don't understand the point of debating Coe and Cram like a couple of 11 year olds however the above comment regarding Steve Cram is absolutely stupid.

Read more, study more and most importantly....post less.

Please

Actually Cram was the defending World Champion in one of the most tactical races ever (if starting very slowly through 800 is tactical).

Coe had a more of a reputation as a time trialer. Most of his races apart from the Olympics were set up record attempts, not head to head matches with all the very best runners.

F.Booth wrote:

Actually Cram was the defending World Champion in one of the most tactical races ever (if starting very slowly through 800 is tactical).

Coe had a more of a reputation as a time trialer. Most of his races apart from the Olympics were set up record attempts, not head to head matches with all the very best runners.

Yes, Coe was a good time trialer, but I think you'll find he won a lot of big races over his career that weren't record attempts. Half his world records weren't even conscious attempts.

What is being overlooked is the fine Olympics Ovett had.

Seriously ill, yet he makes 2 finals including a 1:44.9 800 semi...a run to exhaustion.