Young Phenom Runners Explained

CoachB

Extremely grateful for your considered and experienced response and advice. I am reflecting on it now and will reply with the attention your post deserves. (PS: I used to practice law over in the USA, CA...we were over in April this year, did some running up in Yosemite. We are in Wales, UK, now.)

Many thanks

Tom

We only recently heard of “steady state running.” E.g., aerobic run on Wednesday (6 miles, 3 on gentle incline), 7:50 min/mile pace over 6 miles, looked relaxed. DRF E pace is 8:01, but, rather than interfere, I let flow. 1hr run tomorrow—I’ll post link to Garmin Connect showing speed, cadence and HR of her perceived steady state pace. (Caveat: she’s tired after today’s REP session—told me after it that she got to sleep at 2:00 a.m at her friend’s sleepover.) Today’s REP session: 1 mile w/u, drills, 1 x 600 (1:53), 2 x 400 (1:13 – 14), 2 x 300 (57secs), 2 x 200 (35:46, 34:54). Despite MANY yawns, she exceeded REP pace (and F pace 200s) on each rep (emphasis on better starts and “floating” middle sections). I gave her 4 x the rep recovery, a couple of times slightly more.

I had read the entire thread, including your earlier post on steady state. I’ve let my daughter read it too as it more eloquently explains what I suggested for her aerobic runs. I like your progression runs. I’ve been introducing fartlek variations on longer runs, but will definitely use your progressions. Thanks for the quantification of your kids’ drill and rep volume. I’ve been wary of doing too many of Daniel’s reps: my daughter clocks 30 miles/wk and 5% is approx. 2400 m, as today; this is after about 10 minutes of drills. Any more, I feel, would be too much—I notice your volume is half that.

Your female athlete #1 seems similar to my daughter:

After approx 8 months aerobic work (cycling, swimming, easy running), she moved onto track in July 2009. Her first experience was a race—2:35 for 800 (11yrs).

July 2010 track goals: 2:24 800, 5:00 1500 (she’ll be nearly 13)

Your I and T pace workouts seem very similar to what my daughter does. I was reassured to see a coach (yourself) actually doing this degree of quality and volume. My daughter seems to thrive on the I pace stuff, loves it, prefers it to the REP workouts. (E.g., last Tuesday, 5 x 1000 I pace—3:37, 3:37, 3:42, 3:45, 3:42. 4 x 200 at average 35 secs after the Intervals. I will cut the Intervals down to 4 x 1000 next week.)

My knowledge is limited, but I am trying to absorb as much as I can, quickly. If you sense I’m doing something wrong, please alert me. In particular, I’m struggling/experimenting with tapering and haven’t yet tried for a peak. E.g., she’s just completed 1st wk of Daniels’ Phase 111, but has Cross country races for the next 3 consecutive Saturdays—club race, National CC, then National school CC. We hadn’t intended training specifically for CC, but she’s doing well. Our focus was on track competition May-July 2010. We’ve agreed to continue training this coming week, extra day off Wed, sharpening session Thurs., and to use the 1st CC as a TT. Following week we’ll taper: suspend the Daniel’s program, reduce volume, increase intensity (speed) and go for broke at the Nationals. Off the back of a taper, she wants to resume training during the week leading up to the National School CC. Her reasoning: “I don’t want to interfere with my goals for the summer.” I agree, but am aware that she also wants to compete well in all 3 races. Any advice on this point appreciated.

Re. my 8 year old:

She epitomises love of the sport and is a natural competitor (loves to do her best, wants to win, finds extra gears to ensure victory, doesn’t know what defeat means as she’s too high after any run to care). Incredibly, she seems to know what is enough, what’s too much and what is boring. She seems to have a genetically high VO2 max—she won the school beep/bleep test a few months ago (she’s 8 and beat 9, 10 and 11 yr olds). She’s running her first ever school CC on Wednesday, a 1K hilly course. “I want one of those medals Dad, one of those one’s [that my 12yr old gets]. I WANT ONE. I will get one! I’m innit to winnit, innit.” I’ll get her a medal for simply doing it.

My biggest problem is doing with her what is right, FOR HER. She is competitive. She loves the training and the buzz. She hates being treated as an 8 yr old, “Just let her have fun.” She does have fun—she is most alive when she is flying. With such a child, I won’t restrain that natural enthusiasm and I will afford her the opportunities to train and compete that she craves. But I will research and ask every question to ensure that I protect her from herself—she would do too much.

I should probaby add that I spent a lot of energy making sure the athletes did not over run thier workouts this season. Both kids that I used as examples are extremely motivated. Both had to be reeled back in many times during the season. At one point during the middle of the season was extremely frustrated during one of our workouts. We were running 1200m cruise intervals. On the first one, she hung with one of our better boys and ended up going 15 seconds too fast (these were done on a cross country loop, so I couldn't give her regular splits). After that one, I put her in a group of boys that were running the pace she was supposed to run and told her that she had to sit in the pack for the rest of the workout. She was pissed at me for the rest of the workout because she thought she wasn't training hard enough.

Perhaps she could have trained harder. Perhaps she would have improved more by training harder. In past years, I would have let her push as hard as she wanted, but in past years, I have had many runners peak in the middle of the season and be totally flat when the races mattered at the end. The thing that I am most proud of with my teams this year is that they showed steady progression throughout the season.

I think that a lot of runners and coaches need to be reminded that, just because an athlete can do a workout doesn't mean that the workout should be done.

It took me a number of years to figure that one out.

Here are a few rules of thumb that we use to set up intensities.

Easy run- conversational pace, talking can be done in complete sentences.

Steady state- comfortably fast. If the athlete is running with someone, talking will be somewhat harder.

Tempo - about 20 seconds per mile slower than 5k race pace or 30 seconds per mile slower than 3k pace. Usually we break these up into cruise intervals of 4-6 minutes with 1 min recovery.

VO2 max interval pace - 5k race pace to 3k race pace. I didn't do one true "interval" workout this year. We included some hard efforts at the end of other workouts (as in the 2 x 1200 after the 4x1200 tempo.) Or a hard mile after a tempo run (which is when my frosh boy ran his 4:59). We did what Daniels calls "cruise repetitions" about 4 times this year starting about 6 weeks out from the state meet. The workout was pretty easy. 3 x 1k @ 5k goal pace with 6 minutes of active recovery. We raced 8-11 times this year (depending on how far the athlete advanced) I let those serve as our real VO2 max workouts.

Repetitions. These are done at 1 mile race pace (or effort if we are doing hills) We do a bunch of reps, but we almost never do more than 3200m worth of reps in a given workout and we take plenty of rest between each rep. When we do hills, I try not to let the duration of each rep extend beyond 2 min. The hardest rep workout we did was 7 x 460 on a gradual uphill that flattens out the last 60m. The boy mentioned was usually around 1:45-1:50 and the girl was 1:50-2:00. Toward the end of the season, we will do reps 4-5 times per week, but almost never more than 1000m worth for any given workout (of course, the reps are also almost never done as a stand alone workout during the late season). They just serve to keep our turnover sharp as we taper down toward the big meets.

I'm not trying to put myself out there as the greatest coach, nor my program as the greatest program. But, I've spent a lot of time thinking about why, in the past, runners that showed such great promise early on either stopped progressing or left the sport entirely. And, the topic of this thread IS dealing with progression in young runners. In the last two years, I've been having some of my best team and individual results ever, the kids are running fresher and seem to be enjoying the sport more. If we can train more relaxed and have better results, I don't see any reason to go back to the days of grining out 3 "hard" days a week.

That 5 x 1k workout is solid. What are your daughter's PR's? I'd be careful with the interval training.

I don't know if I explained it well enough above, but I don't really want any of my workouts to be "hard" I want solid efforts that the runners can benefit from, but still recover.

You have the experience and therefore confidence to rein your runners in. Your knoweldge will guide my coaching. Showing ability in the 800, we took #1 F to club coaching last July. 3 coaches had #1 do reps for 2 months with peers (training age, 2yrs). #1 excelled, but, such is her determination, was leaving the track after say 3 x 500 w/ 1min rest with BLUE LIPS—in races too (no dietary deficiency, depleted feretin (sic), or iron). The squad competed in training, didn’t respect the pace. Out-training the ‘club darlings’ elicited nastiness. I withdrew #1 from coaching and racing, and began aerobic running on trails, grassy valleys, no road or track for 2 months. Now, 5 – 6 months later, no blue lips, constant improvement, enjoyment restored. I train my 3 kids together, all doing different things (the sheep chaser[8yrs F), scenery gazer (12yrs F), Nintendo player (10 yrs M).

I will stop #1 exceeding the pace of her Daniel’s workouts; although he discusses upping the paces after improvement, her realistic goals are sufficient for a first season. I’d rather she consolidate than risk injury. As you advise, I’ll shift the focus to SSR and up the progression run w/u before sessions rather than up the I, R, F and T paces or up the volume.

I read about Daniels’ cruise intervals, but haven’t yet used them. I was even more ignorant 5 months ago and just glad to find a program to modify for #1. Why do you seem to dislike Interval training? Age? Even before your anticipated reply, because she has 3 races on consecutive Saturdays coming up, I will use those to “serve as our real VO2 max workouts” for those weeks. Excellent advice.

As for PRs, #1 doesn’t really have any.

800 2:29:16 in training session w/ worked legs, no taper (target 2:24 by July 2010)

1500 5:12:39 in training session w/ worked legs, no taper (target 5:00 by July 2010)

3000 road run, 1k on incline, 5:58 min/mile pace (no taper)

CC times are too particular to the course and conditions to merit listing

Just thought I'd add that Dr Daniels work is excellent IMO. FOr a concerned parents, disenchanted with club coaching and with talented children, this seminal work (DFR) has guided me through 5 - 6 months and resulted in steady improvement and enjoyment from the kids at their own improvement. After reading some of the huge Lydiard v Daniels thread, I feel that many there misinterpet the emphasis Daniels puts on aerobic conditioning--I've read 14 pages of the thread and no one has yet mentioned that in between the Quality sessions, Daniels advises aerobic/recovery runs. The importance of that for this thread is empirical--I have seen my 12yr benefit and progress directly from from following my interpretation of DRF.

CoachB

Kid #1 (12yrs) tried a progression run today, undulating road through a valley, some short steep sections:

Daniels' aerobic aerobic pace for her 54 VDOT is 8:01 min/mile

15 w/u jog to ease legs from yesterday

30 min at her percieved "Just right" pace

15 min quickening cadence and speed

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/24157228

The link will take you to Garmin Connect: no map date, scroll down to bottom to see pace chart, HR chart and Cadence chart

Sorry, I've been out for a while.

I don't dislike intervals. They are a great way to get fit quick. However, in my experience, kids reach plateaus pretty quickly when their training is heavy with intervals and then they (and their coaches) think that the only way to get faster is to do more intervals or to do them faster. This, in turn, leads to staleness, or injury.

Plus, if you race frequently (as we do here in high school in the states) then you are getting plenty of VO2 max work anyway.

If your daughter likes intervals and doesn't race that often, then she should keep them in her repitoire.

TGMCP wrote:

15 w/u jog to ease legs from yesterday

30 min at her percieved "Just right" pace

15 min quickening cadence and speed

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/24157228

I'm thinking that looks like a solid workout. Is that a replacement for one of the hard days? For a 12 year old with only 1 year under her belt, that is plenty.

According to Daniels, M pace (what I call steady) is 6:49. If she wants to run the times you have listed in july, I would say that during the base phase she should try to gradually work up to being able to do 10-20 minutes 3-4 times per week, COMFORTABLY at 6:49.

She could probably go out and do those runs right away, but the jump would be pretty big. If she were able to do the above type of work by say, early may, she would be well on her way to achieving her goal times for the summer.

You are her dad, so you know her best, but for where she is right now in training, I would try to do something like the following:

Sample week in Feb (including upcoming CC races, assuming saturday)

M: 30 min progression. 10 min easy, 20 min gradually increasing to where the last 12-15 min are at M pace (will probably be in the low 7 min per mile range. Follow with 8 x 200m @ 40-41 seconds (these could also be hill repetitions). Cool down and stretch

T: 45 min easy. If she does any circuit training, this would be a good day for it.

W" 20 min easy warm up, stretch, drills, strides. 4 x 5 min cruise interval (I'm guessing right at around 6:40-6:50 per mile) with one min recovery. Cool down. Or do a workout such as the one you posted above.

Th: 30 min easy, stretch, drills, circuit or weights (if you do them)

F: 30 min progression, with most of it easy, perhaps go M pace for the last mile or so. 4 x 150 F pace with 250 jog recoery

S: Race

Sun: off or cross train.

I have to get ready for work now. Her goal races are in July. Spend time letting that steady (M) pace drop of its own accord. Mix in small ammounts of the other pace. When she doesn't race, do more of the M pace and include a little (i.e. 4 x 600 @ 88 sec per lap) I pace work. She can do more "proper workouts" when the summer is getting closer.

Of course, this is just me. Lots of people have had lots of success with other methods. Keep posting. I'm interested to see how things go.

CoachB

Thanks for applying your knowledge, the most effort a coach has taken since my daughter began running. She runs for a ‘reputable club’, school, county and region—an indictment of UK athletics?

I read about your changed approach after HS athletes peaked too early and understand the timing in your training schedule—increasing quality during pre-competition, emphasising a steady state base first while maintaining basic speed (R pace) and economy. Your SS emphasis clarifies, IMO, Daniels’: e.g., E pace gradually merging with T pace, one above M. (#1 has been steadily increasing her aerobic pace for 6 months, ALL of this run on grass.) Your age suitable program engenders confidence that I adapted DRF reasonably for my 12yr old—maybe a bit heavy on the quality, light on the E – T (or SS). I was surprised, but pleased and enlightened, that you recommend 6 days training, albeit with 2 easy days, 1 SS and 2 quality. I carefully consider all of this and respond later.

Regarding her 3 CC Saturdays in a row, beginning this Saturday, we have a dilemma: do I taper (not peak) her for these, or, as you do, blend the training into the race schedule by substituting the Interval (Q1) session with each race. I believe I will. Still adhering to Daniels, Wk2 of Phase 111, 1500 Plan A, we’ll do your cruise interval session on Tuesday to satisfy DRF Thurs Q2 tempo session (w/ 4 x 200 R pace after). She normally does 6 x roughly 1000 tempos on grass, but I’ll do them on track tomorrow—I’ll consider doing them for 4 – 5 mins instead of a fixed distance, but will consult with #1 first as she ‘enjoys’ the familiarity of 1000s. E run Wed, your progression run Thursday (with F reps, Q3), then the Q1 interval session now a race on Saturday—followed by reps. Sunday we’ll do a long E run with 15 – 20 SS in the middle. Friday rest, maybe a walk up the mountains (we live on one). She also rested tonight—light hockey session after school. Is that TOO MUCH REST?

While I remember, no, the link I posted re. #1s 1hr run was not supposed to replace a quality session for the week. That WAS her taking it easy—she enjoys the long run. The course was perhaps too hilly in places, but she was comfortable throughout, taking it easy actually until the last 15 minutes, a very steep section, where she upped the cadence and speed a bit. If you noticed, her heart rate was relatively low throughout: her resting HR is 42 or less, max recorded 210. Up to 184ish is her taking it easy, 184 – 192 working, 192 – 199 hard, I’d say 199 was her upper limit before going over VO2 max and into anaerobic. (I’ve recorded her heart for 14 months during cycling and running.)

After these 3 races, and discussing your views with #1, we’ve agreed to really focus on your SS and to avoid overdoing the quality sessions too early. #1 commented that she’s still concerned about the SPEED ENDURANCE phase (DRF Phase 1V) and doesn’t want to leave it too late in the season before she gets this completed. Track season here is May - August. We are clearly novices and don’t mind if we peak before the big races—as long as she peaks IN ANY 1500 and ANY 800, she will be satisfied.

I am actually intrigued to know how she’ll fare with the SS run on the track. I hazard that she’ll do the 6:49 COMFORTABLY, i.e., her HR will not exceed 192 nearing the end of a 20 minute SS after warming up with E pace. I will post a link to Garmin Connect for the relevant parts of the workout (the E into SS portion and the reps).

Thanks again CoachB and I’ll definitely continue to post—I’ve had a couple of messages from the UK Runners World forums saying that they are following this Letrun thread with interest.

PS: you suggest training on the Friday before a Saturday rece. I've been resting #1 the day before races. Am I being naive, foolish, over cautious, etc., or just plain misguided?

PS: #3 kid (8yr old girl) is running her 1st ever race on Wednesday morning, a 1K CC on hilly course. SHe is nervous, excited, dreaming. Wants me to make a wee movie and add music to my camcorder footage of the race.

#2 kid (10, boy) is also running the same meeting, older age group. He is less keen, maybe more talented than the girls, lazy, but reflective/introspective at such a young age. He won his school heats for the Wednesday Inter-school CC so we'll see how it goes on the day.

I'll post the post-race synopsis on Wednesday night.

OK, bear in mind that I am just a guy on a message board and I could be full of crap. Also, bear in mind that I have had pretty good results with the more traditional 3 x hard session per week (especially if you just look at my stars). With the traditional 3 quality sessions per week method, I had an athlete earn 3rd place in the 5k at the USA junior championships (year 2000, female). Having said that, I think that for young runners, I am much more comfortable with the approach I have been using the last couple of years.

There are a couple of points I would like to hit on from your previous post:

#1 I use 6 days of training with my athletes, but many of them end up with an extra day off in there. I don't see a problem with a 12 year old, training age of 1, only going 5 or even 4 days (especially if she is mixing hockey or other sports in there). I prefer to have a higher training frequency with less effort put into any on given session.

#2 Just train through the next 3 races. If your daughter does not hammer any of her workouts, but runs them controlled and within herself, she should have plenty of pop in her legs for the races. We don't really back off our training for any early season races....of course, you have much longer between these cross races and your track season than my runners would have between their early season races and their championships. If you want to taper down a bit more that is probably fine. There is plenty of time to go back and build a little base after the races are over. The one thing that you absolutely, positively must remember is DON'T DRASTICALLY INCREASE THE QUALITY in an attempt to "peak" for these races. Actually, don't do that...ever. It does not work. Your daughter will race totally flat.

#3 you can do your tempo/cruise interval sessions wherever you like. Doing stuff on the track is nice because it is easier for the athlete to feel the appropriate effort level when she is not slowing down for corners or adjusting for hills. If she likes 6 x 1000 at tempo effort, that is fine, you don't need to change. I thought I remembered you indicating that that workout was done at I pace, however.

#4 The run the day before the race isn't really a workout. It should be more like a warm up and some fast strides. I think it is a good idea to bring the heart rate up for a short period the day before a race. I don't have any science to back this up, but have had good results recently using an easy run that progresses to SS pace the day before a big meet. Last fall, the day before our state championship, the girl that I have been refering to ran the course in 21:30 (which was her race pace early in the season). She came back the next day with a 48 second PR at 18:26.

#5 I wouldn't worry too much about the SPEED ENDURANCE. Build the base, maintain R pace while gradually lengthening the rep length. Use I pace sparingly, but gradually lengthen the intervals. The first race in May should provide exciting results to build from. I'll use our build up for track season last spring and use different athletes as an example (since my really good girl plays basketball during the winter, she doesn't participate in our pre-season track program, so I can't use her as an example for this). Starting in December, after our athletes have recovered from CC season, we start building toward the start of our outdoor track season (meets start in march for CA HS). The program we followed was pretty similar to what I described above. I had one girl last year that followed our plan very prcisely. Age 16, training age 1.5. She had run the 400 and 800 during the 2008 season with an 800 best of 2:37 (an effort which left her wiped out for the rest of the day). After our pre-season conditioning, she opened up the 2009 season with a 2:35 in early march, in which she won her heat. She said the race felt like one of her easiest ever. We progressed her though the season and she ended up running 2:26 in early may. As a freshman in 2007, during her first competitive season, she ran lots of quality work and was only able to run 2:44 for 800, lots of quality her sophomore year only brought her down 7 seconds to 2:37, but the solid SS base in 2009 allowed her to open up the season with a 2 second PR and still have the mental energy to knock an additional 9 seconds from her PR. Now that I think about it, the girl ran PRs in every non dual meet of the season, running her PR at our league championship to take 2nd (at our section meet, she ran a bit slower, timed the peak wrong by 10 days...dang!)

Her pre-season looked about like the following

M: 20-30 min steady followed by a little I pace (3 x 600, gradually lengthening to 4 x 800 in march, all done at about 95s per 400)

T: 30-45 min easy + weights

W: 1 mile warm up, 2.8 mile tempo or some sort of cruise interval session, 1 mile cool down. We use more tempo runs in the winter because the temperature is more conducive to them. During the fall, the temperature is still in the upper 90s to low 100 degree range when we practice, so I have to break up the tempo's into cruise interval sessions

Th: Longer effort, up to 1 hr.

F: 20-30 minutes easy to steady + Game day (relays, ultimate frisbee, tag, soccer, crustaceans..I invented that one) that included a fair amount of fast running. This was also the day we did reps, if there weren't enough kids around to play a game. Reps started off at 150m in Dec and lengthened out to 300-400 by march. Total volume of reps was usually kept under 1600m

Weekend: one day off, one day easy

CoachB

If I’d detected that you were full of crap, I would not have responded—crap reeks, even on the internet! On the contrary, I soak up your advice and filter it through my own limited knowledge and experience. I am cautious, even with the likes of Daniels, Lydiard and Co.

I’ll consider your 6 on, with slightly easier sessions, as opposed to how we’ve been operating (we were actually on 6 before, but cut it as the quality/intensity increased).

Re. your “DON'T DRASTICALLY INCREASE THE QUALITY”, that is EXACTLY what we have been doing!!! And she did race TOTALLY FLAT in her last race. I was following the “reduce the volume, increase the intensity” theory spouted by many, Daniels included. It wasn’t drastic though, on reflection, half the volume, upping the speed starting from 5 – 7 days before a race. 5 days worked fine, good race, 7 days and she was flat (for a 4,200 CC). I also factored in day on, day off for both tapers?

She has been doing 6 x TEMPOS for a few months now. Max. Intervals we’ve done is 5 x 1000K. (Maybe I mixed them up, apologies if so. I’ll check tomorrow, just about to hit the sack here at 1:30 a.m.)

Your experience with your top girl noted—we’ll definitely do a short session this time around, just to keep the legs moving day before.

Whoa! Informative re. the girl improving more with the additional SS rather than heavy quality. The more I listen and think, the more I feel we’ve only scratched the surface re. base building (I thought our months of it was sufficient, an entire year now seems more sensible).

Re. your girl’s pre-season:

M: I pace at 95 per 400? I note that is slower than I’d have expected since she achieved a 2:26 800, but I realize and remind myself now that we’ve been predicting what she’ll get and training at those paces (against what Daniels says) instead of basing her pacing at what she has already done. Cardinal sin? #1 (i.e., my 1st daughter) has been hammering them at target 88/400 (during 1Ks) and achieving slightly above to below that (i.e., 1:37 – 1:42/5 for the 1Ks). I should ease back her speed and keep her to the lesser targets? Keep the target for the track, not the training field?

W: no problems with heat here in Wales! It’s freezing most of the year! (Should increase #1s times when it does get milder during the summer months though. I remember the sun...when I lived in CA.)

Your program seems...relaxed and enjoyable, whilst calculated to improve the athlete. Thanks. #1 and I have serious thinking and planning to do here. (I am not being sycophantic or trying to ingratiate myself—I put a lot of thought and time into researching all this, and can discern sound advice, echoing many of my nascent thoughts, but not always put into practice, probably because I am learning, don’t know enough yet, and therefore have no solid conviction other than to dispense with the soundings of those who like to talk. (I have two degrees in Philosophy, one in law, these precluding me falling for BS—you do not BS at all.) I am copying all your posts and saving them in an ongoing file.

I will try to fathom “crustaceans.”

I’m falling asleep here, knackered. Thanks again.

Tom

PS: I’m anticipating a fiercely run CC from my 8yr old on Wednesday. She was training with me at the Club, tagging along with MD squad 5 years her senior. Honestly, the entire stadium, sprinters, MD, LD, parents, coaches...everyone just stopped to appreciate the effort that wee girl put in, with a smile on her face and laughter as she finished a workbout. I’d like to let you see a wee one minute movie clip of her race on Wednesday. I know in advance how she will run—she only knows one way. She may not win, or even place, but she will inspire and come off smiling.

CoachB

#1 daughter did the SS run this evening, on track.

w/u mile E pace

Approx. 1000 m drils

1600 m at E pace then straight into 20 mins at SS (M pace). She completed 4700 in 19:54, so 6:44 min/mile pace (slightly better than M pace). Unfortunately, her HR was up from my anticipated 192...she averaged 196, stayed there virtually throughout. As I said in the previous post, I believe 199 to be the cut off point above which she fast goes into oxygen debt (ANAEROBIC?). On a scale of 1 - 10, #1 says the run was a 5/6, harder than aerobic, not as hard as her 3K TT or a 5 x 1K interval set. Speed pretty constant for 12min then steadily decline by about 0.7 mph until last 3 mins when she upped it a bit to finish. Cadence 87, which is low, i.e., comfortable.

4 x 200 reps at 36 - 36.5 sec.

w/d mile at jog pace...stretch.

(I have the workout uploaded to Garmin Connect, but it's off. I changed the battery on her watch and forgot to reset the calibration factor. Watch showed 5.26K in 19:54--I counted the laps precisely and recorded them on split timer stopwatch and have now reset the calibration accurately.)

PS:

I've pondered the tapering issue since yesterday. We were decided upon how and when we'd taper (not peak), but I enjoy and need to revisit each issue as gain more knowledge (still sorely lacking though) and experience. CoachB's experience and focus on "the big meets" caused me to rethink. I've concluded that, for these 3 races, we will cut back this week from what what probably already just encroaching on the overkill levels, taper within DFR's schedule next week for the Nationals (as DFR Phase 2, Wk3, 1500 plan schedules an easier week which we'd planned for anyway) and then resume training on the week preceeding the last race as #1 will be coming off a lighter schedule and a taper.

Just read the below article:

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0267.htm

Excellent, IMHO. The issue, for us, is resolved when guaging where #1 is right mow, how long since the last taper (we usually work on a lighter week or taper every 3 4 weeks, and this is that week) and what meetings are important for us this season.

CoachB, I wish some other readers of this thread would chip in--it'd be good to have some debate on this fundamental issue of child athlete development/progression for the 8 yr old tots all the way to 16, 17 yrs olds. Planning from the start and on into the future is a big part of the picture.

Yes, I stick to the paces that kids have already run when doing I pace. However, you need to take into account that those winter workouts were usually done in trainers on a muddy track, which adds significant difficulty.

Crustaceans is really a great workout. We use it with the whole track team...I don't think it would work well with a small group. I'll take video next time we play it and e-mail to you. :)

Yes, agree, and we've been curious to see how all those months of training on swamps translates onto track. Quite rewarding, times were all up and all 3 kids felt good back on track (as it were). I believe those swamp surfaces, and hills, are really good for ankle and foot strength--always a good side to the most trying of circumstances.

PS: #3 won her CC today! If you email me, I'll post the movie over. Or better yet (movie is too big for email), I'm about to start a private Facebook Training group site, just for me and the kids to discuss things in a fun way--a few friends with interests in running will I'm sure join in soon. I'll post today video on there. She was phenomenal.

THis is probably way to controlled and scientific for younger runners. Daniels formulas and training is for mature runners. None of us know what is really going on in the bodies of these young athletes. Many can perform outstanding times with limited mileage, others respond to higher mileage. Having been the father or a young runner who converted to playing baseball by his second year in highschool I saw some very promising times with mostly distance work, and some intervals. Although they excell against their peers (although we really don't know what their peers are since who knows what kind of training goes on out there with young runners (pre high school)) and might do very well in open road races, I think some children just plain and simply develop quicker and don't have that much development after entering high school or after. My example would be my son. By 13 he had run a 1:25 half-marathon and a 35:23 10k on about 35 miles per week. Don't know what he might have done ultimately since I let him find his own path, but I suspect others would have caught up. He still runs, but has little time due to family and work. Would love to see him be able to take the time and commit to see what all the early running meant for an adult body. He shows flashes of ability during an annual father's day run where he will finish in the top ten on little training.

My real point is, just let them run, easy mileage will do it for kids, they have a long way to go and many years to develop the stamina and speed. Look back and you will see the landscape litered with many high mileage, highly intensity trained younger runners (Garritson family for example) all who had talent but by the time the got into or out of high school were done with competitive running. Jordan Hasay's coach took a much longer term approach and I think we will see her around for a long time.

TGMCP,

Lots of good info in this thread.

I've got two kids that run a bit, my daughter just turned 13 and my son will be 10 this spring. I've taken a less formal approach with them, as that's what works for our situation/schedule and their psyche right now.

The both have played soccer for a few years, which has certainly helped their athletic development. This fall they each did a couple of x-country races (3k) and due to twice a week soccer practice and games on Saturday, they just ran once a week (always on grass).

My daughter has dipped under 2:30 for 800m and under 1:05 for 400m, on very little formal work. On the grass, she's done some 800s at threshold pace and on the track, she's done some basic speed work, like 4 x 200 or 3 x 400.

My son recently ran a 2:48 800m. No national records, but they have fun and compete pretty well.

As I said, the informal approach works for us. Last summer, she was running about 9-10 miles a week to stay in shape for soccer. Might up it to 12 miles a week this summer, or it could stay at 10. My son will just do one or two runs, no more than 2 miles each. Given my work schedule and their school work during the school year, we're very much under training, but if they like it come high school, they can up it then.

There's a 10th grader here in New York, Kelsey Margey, that is running track for the first time this indoor season. She plays soccer in the fall and lacrosse in the spring, and it appears has done so for years. She ran a 4:56 mile back in December and recently ran the leading 1000 meter time here in the states for high school girls, a 2:51! So while getting kids to start at an early age is all well in good, there are other roads to the same destination.

In the end, it's an experiment of one.

Hope the kids continue to do well.