Hall ?< Ritz

Nonsense... wrote:

abbenormal wrote:

Last time I checked Ritz beat Hall when it mattered at the Olympics.

Nonsense.

They don't give prizes for 9th or 10th at the olympics. It did not matter.

!!!!

abbenormal wrote:

I am not a Hall hater, but I think it is a little premature to say that Hall is "clearly" the best American. Last time I checked Ritz beat Hall when it mattered at the Olympics. Not to say what Hall has been doing is not short of absolutely ridiculous, ie workout videos, but we have no idea what the hell Ritz has been up to. Ritz beat him when it mattered the most and to crown Hall prince of American Marathon running is just not right yet.

Time for correctness and completeness:

1) Hall is currently more accomplished than Ritzenhein.

2) Ritzenhein's 9th place finish in the Olympic Marathon, compared to Hall's 10th place finish, is not significant enough to say he's doing better, and one race, even if it is an Olympic Marathon, doesn't do enough.

3) Hall has that 2:06 and 59:43 that are times that Ritz hasn't yet come close to.

4) Prior to Hall's AR in the half marathon, Ritz had done better; since then Hall has done better. When looking at everything together, Hall so far has a more impressive career.

5) Last I checked though, neither is done with his career. Both still have the opportunity to get better, and I predict they will (though harder for Hall as those half and marathon times are VERY tough).

Well Ritz does have a medal on the world scene. They seem about equal to me. Bottom line is they love Jesus and he loves them. Ritz may have a slight edge in "lifetime prayers" which as we all know count just as much as the miles the Africans put in when going to school.

So does Ritz's AR make this a more potent discussion? Especially with the race he ran and the field he competed against?

It does for the 5K.

Thats it so far.

lohalloran wrote:

No. 10th at the olympics was NOT competitive. Ritz was never within 100ft of the leaders except at the starting line. How was he competitive? Wanjiru, Merga, Gharib, etc never even knew Ritz was in the race so I think that is pretty definitive that Ritz wasn't competitive.

NO one was near Wanjiru....

They both have a ways to go. But to this point overall, Ritz is better than Hall.

Ritz beat Hall in the Olympic marathon, finished 6th in the world in the 10K, ran 12:56 in the 5K and owns a 24th place finish in World XC. Hall's awesome. But unless you want us to guess his unperformed accomplishments, Ritz' are decisively better to this point. Either way, I think they've both met or exceeded their teen-phenom promise.

ttc wrote:

But unless you want us to guess his unperformed accomplishments, Ritz' are decisively better to this point. .

"decisively" ?? No way. Hall's 2:06 and 59:43 are better than Ritz' 12:56. Both of Hall's times are higher on the all time performer list than Ritz is in the respective events, and Hall's times are, %-wise, closer to the WR. And Hall's 2 races were not picture perfect for pr's (like Ritz's was): the 1/2 he ran all by himself the whole way, the marathon they went out insanely fast.

Hall's 2 best performances are better than Ritz' best ever performance. Ritz does have higher championship performances, but Hall's Boston 3rd and London 5th are as good as a 6th in the WC's I think.

The 5000 is more competitive than the half marathon...the fact that Hall is higher up on the all time list is pointless.

This original post comes really from the article from Boston last year were the Jo's wrong in saying that Hall was "was so far above the rest of the field", would have it better to say that we had a perfect day at the trials? By saying he was far above would elevate him to something greater than most American Distance runners. has what ritz done change anything? Is Hall still far above the rest?

I'd look at it this way:

Hall's 2:06:17, his 59:43, and Ritz's 12:56 are all about the same if you plug it into McMillan. Hall's got two transcendant performances, Ritz has one. Hall wins.

(And I'd equate Ritz's 6th at the WC with Hall's 3rd at Boston, FWIW.)

But Ritz has the titles, two Foot Lockers and an NCAA Cross win all over Hall. Then factor in the Olympics and you could say RItz has won every really big race the two have been in.

o.O wrote:

lohalloran wrote:

No. 10th at the olympics was NOT competitive. Ritz was never within 100ft of the leaders except at the starting line. How was he competitive? Wanjiru, Merga, Gharib, etc never even knew Ritz was in the race so I think that is pretty definitive that Ritz wasn't competitive.

NO one was near Wanjiru....

Gharib was.

My $0.02 wrote:

I'd look at it this way:

Hall's 2:06:17, his 59:43, and Ritz's 12:56 are all about the same if you plug it into McMillan. Hall's got two transcendant performances, Ritz has one. Hall wins.

(And I'd equate Ritz's 6th at the WC with Hall's 3rd at Boston, FWIW.)

My .02 is that if you lined up all of the best runners in the world at one point, more people would run 59:43 than 12:56.

Ritz needs to get with Al Salz, and juice-up with the others. Soon he'll be running incredible times. even when he is 45?

Hall !< Ritz

elaborate?

Ritzenhein:

8:11(2 miles)

12:56

27:22

61:25

2:10.00

Hall:

13:16

28:06

59:43

2:06:17

it seems ritzenhein has better stamina and speed endurance for 3k-10k, although hall hasn't really trained for the those distances since college.

at the same time, considering ritzenhein's change in coaches and the subsequent improvement over certain distance, it's hard to say whether he will match, surpass, or not perform as well as hall has for the HM and marathon distances. i think this debate won't be finalized until the end of their careers, because they're both obviously capable of achieving a lot.

in high school, ritzenhein always beat hall from 3200-5k, but that was high school.

it would be cool to see hall and ritzenhein on the same world cross team in 2010 though. usa, usa, usa...

I've posted this type of argument before and got killed here, but here goes.

Ritz>Hall

The reason? The ultimate judge of this sport in my view is how you do when it matters the most - when you are on the biggest stage.

In high school XC, that would be the Footlocker meet.

In college XC, it would be Nationals

Post collegiate, it would be the Olympics

Ritz has taken him down in the 4 or 5 most important races they have ever had against each other.

Not to say it all won't change in the future, but if their careers both ended today, I don't see how you can say Hall was the better runner.