does anybody have absolutey no speed whatsoever but still run well at longer distances?

fUrCeOsNhN,

Can you outline the program that you're using to improve your basic speed? How often do you work on it during base? What kind of workouts do you do? And how do you progress your workouts from base to racing (frequency, duration etc.)?

I am pretty slow myself (Lo 60 400m speed). I haven't really done anything to improve on it except 10 x 100m strides (1600-800m effort) w/ a min recovery twice a week for the past 7-8 weeks of my base training. This is the first time I have done anything resembling a pure speed workout in the 2 years I have been running. I'll be done with base training in a week.

10X100m @ 800/1600 pace is a start but to see a lot of improvement more should be done

Speed is all about specific power production-focus on increasing stride length and stride frequency and you will get faster. 1600 pace or even pace won't do much for you-to improve max speed to need to work AT max speed. And if work like 10X100m at 800m pace does do something for you (ie you are sore the next day) that should be a huge wakeup call.

Powerful and unimpeded hip extension and flexation are the key. Run from the hips.

Training speed is different then training endurance-not just physically different but mentally as well. When training for speed you need a sprinters mentallity. Recovery does matter-make sure you take plenty of it.

If you are slow it is either because you are either not producing much force or you producing force but are not using it to drive yourself forward effectively.

Learn how to sprint and then train the muscles to be able to maintain that form for longer and longer distances-look at the Ethiopians and observe how they run then look at most Europeans...their form is completely different-much more explosive, much crisper mechanically and much less wasted energy.

Be prepared to feel it the next day-the first few times doing an exercise or a workout hold back at least a little.

Some people improve rapidly with this type of stuff (I went from 28mid 200m pr to 23.5 in about 2 months in high school, pretty much just from doing 200s on the track, no hills or weights) while some people will not see much improvement at first. As long as you avoid injury and keep at it, your speed will improve.

In order of importance/frequency of use

1. Hills-there is room for a lot of variety here, a lot of things can be tweaked to see continued improvement for a long time. Using different grades, different speeds, different distances, different surfaces and even focusing on different muscle groups means that it takes years to fully reap the benefits.

examples, from typical stuff to workouts I've done on the fly.

~~10-40X15 seconds hills with walkback-each all out, start with maybe as low as 4 or 5 to make sure they are really all out, 40 is a bit much I usually stop at 20 or 30. Pretty typical, search hill sprints for the juicy details.

~~20X200m buttkicks focusing on turnover-these are not that fast but good form is still necessary-landing on the ball of the foot and running from the hips as much as possible. Hamstrings should be jelly by halfway and mush by the end...but usually recover pretty quick and feel good by the next run.

~~10X100m high knees-much like the buttkicks except focusing on the hip flexors (an absolutely vital muscle for speed)

~~10X400m with the first 300 at a moderate pace and the last 100 as fast as possible-this is more of a kick building workout, I don't use it much.

~~10X300m first 100m buttkicks, next 100m sprint and last 100 high knees. I don't use this much anymore either, it helps you change pace more quickly though-gives you an extra little spurt of acceleration.

>>use grades between 4% and 10%, any steeper and the running action is too distorted, any shallower and you might as well grab your spikes and head for the track.

2. Weights

Deadlifts, bulgarian split squats, dumbell squats w/ overhead press, leg press, squats-everything targeting the quads/glutes/hamstrings and everything near max weight (after a phase of higher volume to adjust)

Also, core work can be useful if that is your "missing link". If not, do it anyway so it doesn't become your missing link.

3. Sprints (actually more effective then weights but cannot be done as frequently)

~~ 10X100m start at 1600 pace, work down to 800 pace and then the last few should be all out-really all out, not 400m pace. Focus on relaxation, good form (NO HEEL STRIKING) and have fun with them.

4. Drills

~~I just use them to warmup before sprints the only drills I've found useful are

-jog along for a little bit then whip one leg through with the hip flexors then drive it down as fast as possible-this helps leg speed (a bit)

-high knees

-buttkicks

-skipping as fast as possible (sounds dumb but actually not a bad drill)

5.Pylos/downhill runs/hurdle hops

~~pylos-don't worry about these yet, after at least a season of hills and weights then add these in-personally I think they are too risky otherwise. They can help though.

~~downhills-also risky, but a lot of reward when done correctly, these can help leg speed a lot.

~~hurdle hops-I don't have easy access to hurdles, but I don't lose any sleep over not doing these.

Now, this seems like a lot, but it is still possible to maintain decent mileage (80-90+) and continue doing specific workouts at the same time, as long as you don't go crazy with the speed stuff. Some weeks I did that and had a hill, sprint or weight workout 5-6 days a week for instance, as well as 4-5+ hard tempos-that resulted in injury (kind of a no-brainer looking back). Note-I am an 800m/1500m guy and not a marathoner. Marathoners would probably do maybe 2 CNS/power workouts a week total but 100-140+ miles a week instead.

1 hill workout a week(maybe 2 as there is less pounding), 2 weight workouts (or 3 every 10 days) and 1 sprint workout every week is enough, but if you need longer to recover, take it. Core can be done more often.

Pure speed can be done during the base phase, but scale back when peaking to get the CNS fresh-drop the weights, and maybe just 1 set of short hills or sprints a week to keep in touch with it-your plate should be pretty much full with more specific stuff around that time anyway, whatever your race distance is.

Hope that helped.

endurance is your ability to maintain speeds close to your maximum.

If you have a rubbish maximum speed, even perfect endurance isn't going to help you much. Both are trainable.

Depending on the distance raced the two contribute different amounts.

The marathon for instance is probably 2-3% speed goverened and 98-97% endurance. Where as the 5km which is being talked about here is probably more like 10-15% / 85-90%.

So someone with perfect speed a.k.a bolt is only 10-15% of the way to a good 5km, where as a perfect endurance candidate is more like 90% of the way there!

bs detectornator wrote:

you must be the most unathletic person ever AND never trained speed...I know moderately athletic fat guys who have never train that could run 30 seconds for 200m.

Mostly #1. I've never done a backward roll, fall over on cross country skis, etc. But I can blow spit bubbles from my tongue!

On the elite level, this sounds like Ryan Hall.

I wouldn't go so far as to say he has absolutely no speed but he has not gone below 4 for the mile( dunno if he could have, if he had stuck solely to the mile as a pro). Also he has repeatedly shown that he does better the longer the distance gets. Hell, maybe he should get involved in ultras.

fUrCeOsNhN wrote:

I am an 800m/1500m guy and not a marathoner. Marathoners would probably do maybe 2 CNS/power workouts a week total but 100-140+ miles a week instead.

When I was competing in marathons (my highest placing was 2nd), the guy I was working with said the thing to do would be to wear weights on my feet in training. Then when I took them off for a race, I would go a lot faster.

A few months later, like some others in the office from talking with me and my example, he surprised me by saying he'd gone out for a run, the first time he'd ever done this in his life. He kept doing this consistently, and told me he was finding the running to be difficult. I looked right at him and said, well the thing to do is attach some weights to your feet. Then when you take them off you'll be able to run a lot faster.

He got the point, and then we discussed his running a bit more.

bump

fUrCeOsNhN,

I agree with everything you wrote. What are your PRs? How did they progress given your drills and speed routine? Are you still running or retired? Age?

Ummm... ever heard of Evan Jager?

For God's sake everyone!

Geoff (Uconn Fresh) is a troll! Maybe a very knowledgable troll, but a troll nonetheless. He comes on here all of the time talking about whatever ridiculous training he's been doing that week, but never ever racing. He has not completed a race in 2+ years. His lifetime PRs are 2:07 for 800, 18+ for 5k, etc. He is a liar. He hasn't raced since high school, and he was slower than your average JV guy then.

haha wow, what a burn

acsics noob wrote:

On the elite level, this sounds like Ryan Hall.

I wouldn't go so far as to say he has absolutely no speed but he has not gone below 4 for the mile( dunno if he could have, if he had stuck solely to the mile as a pro). Also he has repeatedly shown that he does better the longer the distance gets. Hell, maybe he should get involved in ultras.

Ryan hall ran 1:50-1:52 for 800 in high school...

Anyway, I think that most people who claim to run under 15 but not under 60, can run under 60 if they tried to improve. I personally ran 15:21 (I know, not under 15 but close)..., I used to be one of the "slow" guys, running 58-59 for 800m. I'd go 12x400 cut downs from 70 to 59, but could never go faster than 58 point even during fresh time trials.

I went into the weight room, built my upper body strength via weight lifting (improving form/stability, at least perceptually, I could now "drive" down the final 150m) and did 5x100m flat / 6x100m uphill sprints with full recovery after my short recovery jogs (during Renato's first appearances here on Letsrun). Took some time but I got down to 55's for open 400m time trials after a couple of months of doing this.

My distance times stayed constant, improving by a natural level, 18 seconds over 5k from indoors to outdoors. What did change was my kick... I had a decent kick for 58 guy, usually closing in 62-63 when not going for a PR but after the speed work I was closing in 59-60 under similar conditions. I also didn't suck ass at 800m anymore...

I think the guy that said slow guys take pride in being slow but decent at long distance was correct... I used to be one of those guys, but after working on my speed I realized that I was just mediocre, haha.

61/4:32/14:48

the 61 was a relay split when I was a 15:30 guy, but the 4:32 was a week before a 14:54