Distance runners with sub-50 400m speed?

Runningart2004 wrote:

If a runner has sub 50 400m speed in high school they will run the 400m...maybe the 800m

Alan

Dude.... what about A. Webb?

Bryshon is took quick to be a good mid distance runner. He ran 20.40 in 2007. There are a few exceptions, but guys like Juantorena aren't common. Borzakovskiy can run 45sec, 1:42 and 3:45 (probably better than that, too), but you probably would never see him under 21 for an open 200m. It's like a seesaw.

It's like if you have to 48sec runners in high school and one is a 21 low 200m runner and the other is good for a 22 on the best day of his life, chances are that the second kid has some pretty good natural aerobic capacity that is serving him in his 400m, thus he's more likely to do well in the 800m and mile.

good coaches can evaluate where a runner's talents will come to fruition. by watching them run at various paces, the experienced eye can determine where a runner exhibits good economy. also, you can arrive at reliable generalities about body-type and race-fit. for example, two 18 year old runners you coach run about an 11 flat 100m. one is 5-11 140lbs, and the other is 5-11 160lbs. next, they both run 49 seconds in the 400m, but you notice some differences: the heavier guy with thicker muscles sprints 400m with higher knee lift, a shorter stride angle, more vertical displacement, and slightly faster stride-rate. the thinner guy sprints 400m with lower knee lift, a longer stride angle, a long back kick, virtually no vertical displacement, and a slightly slower stride-rate. at this point, you see that the 160lb guy is a fairly conventional sprinter who will almost certainly struggle running the 800m anywhere near 1:50.

you see the efficiency of the thinner guy and immediately know there's potential for sub 1:50 800m and, better yet, potential for a sub 4:00 miler. after watching him run 400's in the mid to high :50s during training, he exhibits great smoothness and economy--it is then that you know he's special. 4 years hence, this is the guy who is running consistenly under 4 minutes.

as an aside, i've also seen a 5-11 140lb guy (same size as distance guy) who could run the 110hh under 14 seconds, so the key is matching how their body runs at racing speed with the appropriate races.

on the runs wrote:

Bryshon is took quick to be a good mid distance runner. He ran 20.40 in 2007. There are a few exceptions, but guys like Juantorena aren't common. Borzakovskiy can run 45sec, 1:42 and 3:45 (probably better than that, too), but you probably would never see him under 21 for an open 200m. It's like a seesaw.

It's like if you have to 48sec runners in high school and one is a 21 low 200m runner and the other is good for a 22 on the best day of his life, chances are that the second kid has some pretty good natural aerobic capacity that is serving him in his 400m, thus he's more likely to do well in the 800m and mile.

I understand where you are coming from. But Bryshon is like no other speedster around. He has narrow hips, thin calves and covers more ground with every step than most sprinters. Again, I might be completely wrong, but it is just a hunch that he might have the right mechanics for the mile. I remember Obea Moore ran a well documented 4:20 for 1600 meters in practice.

fUrCeOsNhN wrote:

Bekele and Geb are probably right around 50flat-Jos hermans said Geb ran a 49.9 time trial and bekele seems to have similar speed. They just have the ability to close out 5k/10k races very close to maximum speed-Bekele in particular.

Bekele's final 400 of the Beijing 10,000 was 53. I have a hard time believing he couldn't go under 50.

browski wrote:

Bekele's final 400 of the Beijing 10,000 was 53. I have a hard time believing he couldn't go under 50.

Yeah, everyone has a hard time with that, but it's probably true. Once you understand how well developed their aerobic capacity is, and how much the Africans work top end speed into their training, it makes sense they would be able to reach very close to PR speed to close out a race. There is a long thread on this question here.

Think about Shalane. I'll guess that she has 58 second 400m speed. Even if she was able to close at that speed, it's simply not fast enough. More likely, the best she can close is going to be 4-5 seconds slower, like 62-63, which is about what she has done in the past. The Ethiopians seem to be able to tighten that up even more, running within 3 seconds or so of their full 400m speed. But, at the end of the day, Defar and Dibaba bring 54 second 400m speed to the same race, and equal or better aerobic ability. Without a significant tactical error or a bad day, it's not a contest.

I guess this forum strips code...

Here is the link:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2648042&page=0

Ok kiddos, let's read what I said:

"If a runner has sub 50 400m speed in high school they will run the 400m...maybe the 800m

I don't care if you are a Kenyan or a Russian...if you are sub 50 in high school you are running no longer than 800m

You can't turn a sprinter into a distance runner and vice versa."

Show me one sub 50 high school kid who is a DISTANCE RUNNER....I'm not talking 800m/mile....I'm talking at least 3200m/5000/10000.

Will a distance runner eventually get faster and drop down to sub 50 because of his ENDURANCE? Possibly.

Also, just because a distance runner can close in :53 doesn't mean they can sprint open in sub :50. They can close in :53 because of the endurance...not their speed.

Call me when Bolt breaks 4:00 in the mile or when Bekele breaks 11 in the 100m.

The athletic endowments needed to run sub :50 in HIGH SCHOOL are not the same as those needed to be a successful distance runner in high school. We are talking genetic gifts here. You can run Bolt all-day long and he'll either break down and get hurt or run 18:00 5k. You can sprint Bekele all-day long and if he won't be a world class or high school class sprinter anytime soon.

Alan

Okay, Alan, so you've managed to illustrate that you have no idea what the original question was. Let's state it again:

If runners with sub 50 second (range of 48-50, NOT 44-47) 400m speed were to train properly for distance (instead of sprints), would we see an aggregate improvement in depth and quality of distance runners in the U.S.?

800 and 1500 *are* included, because right now in the U.S., any kid who cracks 50 ends up being a superstar on the football and track teams, and superstars don't run *further*, they run *faster*.

No one ever suggested that we take a pure sprinter like Bolt (no one except you) and train him like a distance runner to see what happens. And no one suggested training a pure distance runner like a sprinter, either. Did you even read the question? And people have been giving you examples of sub-50 HS runners throughout this thread, like Alan Webb, and it appears you neglected to read those replies as well.

What the hell?

Now, I'd like you to show me where you got the idea that you can improve your open 400m time with ENDURANCE (aerobic) training. That's going to need a citation.

Again, your idiotic statement is undone by Alan Webb. Or is second at Footlocker (to Ritz), a 13:10 5k, and 27:3x for 10k not good enough to make him a "distance runner". "If you are sub 50 in high school, you are running no longer than 800". Did you think about that at all before you wrote it? Webb is only one guy, but come on you said name one guy, so there you go.

As Guppy would say, I think you need to go back and read what you wrote.

This is so retarded, I question whether Runningart2004 really wrote this.

Bekele has actually run sub 11 during the last 100m of his 10k world record...the irony in what runninggart2004 just said is amazing...

10.8 wrote:

Bekele has actually run sub 11 during the last 100m of his 10k world record...the irony in what runninggart2004 just said is amazing...

That you actually believe this to be true shows how profoundly stupid you are. The line you measured from is, uh, "not 100 meters from the finish line."

French runner , philippe colard ran :- 20.8 for 200m, 44 for 400m, 1mn 43 for 800m and 3.33 for 1500m.

But he sucked after 3k ( 8mn )

Alan i got one for you,

Nick Williams, poland regional high school maine, sub-16:30 5k xc and state champ 2007, ran sub 4:30 1600 and sub 9:50 3200 (forget his exact pbs) and 1:58 800, freshman this year at UNH ran 26:26 at franklin park after taking a wrong turn on the course (i was told he was leading the race at this point).

Oh and the best part he ran....49.91 outdoors 07

Runningart2004 wrote:

Show me one sub 50 high school kid who is a DISTANCE RUNNER....I'm not talking 800m/mile....I'm talking at least 3200m/5000/10000.

I see what you're saying, but considering 3200m is the longest track race usually run in high school, it is hard to throw 5000m/10000m in there. If they ran a few open 400's I think many top 800/1600 high school guys could run 50 flat or slightly under. A lot of the 3200m guys that could maybe get close, probably don't run many open 400s.

In Oregon last year, junior Elliot Jantzer ran 49.46, 1:54.56, 3:58.53 (1500), and 8:37.60 (3000m). He has also won the 4A state xc title the last two years.

Bryce Burgess, also an Oregon kid, now at UO, was similar to Jantzer. As a senior 50 flat speed, CC state champ, 11th FLW, and 9:08.2 3200m. Always a distance runner despite obvious speed even as a frosh.

Perhaps in Oregon there is a culture of moving up distances if you have speed.

Mac Fleet is the CA State XC Champion (division III) and won the Reebok Boston Indoor Mile this year and he's run 48 on the relay. Most coaches would have him run the 200m and 400m every meet.

You're an idiot if you think Bekele can't run sub 50. He closed his WR 10k in 11.0 for the final 100m. He's run 3:33. Most 4:00 milers can run 50.x or faster, let alone 3:50 milers. I've seen Africans split 48 in relays who were 5000m runners.

The arguement that runners should always move up is a poor one. Elite runners usually run the event they're best at, or at least run their second best event. It's true athletes often have success when moving up, but most are still better at their current events. Would Coe, Ovett, and Cram been better off in the 5000m? Would El G have been better off in the 5000 and 10000? Would Jeremy Wariner be better off at 800? ...etc.

David Krum did indeed run one helluva 1500 when in peak 800m shape (3:31), but he also won world indoors in the 800. All the other results I've seen for him in the 1500/mile have been significantly slower. He might have been able to be a consistent 3:33-3:35 guy, but I think 3:31 was his limit no matter how he trained. That's certainly no better than his 800m performances.