countinue this discussion plz.
countinue this discussion plz.
Renato,
thank you for continuing to post your information on this message board.
You understand that some athletes who are confused about world class performances in distance running will sometimes be suspicious that there may be a lot of doping going on at the top level of the sport.
Thank you for helping young runners to understand aboout clean training methods.
I know, as you do Renato, that World records will continue to be broken by clean athletes.
With your help we can all be better runners.
thanks
JonnyO
Renato:
You said that Lebid isn't going to race the World Cross-Country next year.
But from the article at iaaf.org:
http://www.iaaf.org/WXC04/news/Kind=2/newsId=23737.html
"Lebid, soundly beaten by Kenenisa Bekele in this event last year, would love to take the scalp of Tergat as an ideal confidence booster ahead of a double championship aim this winter, for he has decided to chase both World indoor and cross country medals.
He has decided to concentrate on speed and will therefore compete indoors this winter with the 3000m at the World Indoor Championships in Budapest (5 ? 7 March) his goal before then spending two weeks introducing longer runs in preparation for the World Cross Country."
I confirm that the first plan is not running WCCCh. He will run cross during January, then goes for a period of speedwork running also some indoor, having the final goal in 3000m in indoor Championships.
Only from the end of February we decide what is better to do. My opinion is that is better to skip WCCCh, or running short race, but Ukraine's Federation makes pressures on Sergey for running long, having also a good team (with Bozhko, Matviychuk, Kuzin and some other runner).
The only think is to await. An advice : don't think too much is what you read, sometime the reality can be a little bit different !
OK, thanks for your answer Renato!
Sergey lost today in Brussels from Paul Tergat, but was not a good race for him. He spent his last week in very poor training, after winning for the fourth time European Championships. Confident in his final sprint, Sergey preferred to await last 400m, but Tergat was very fresh, and was able to give 10 meters in the last 100m. The fact that for Sergey was not a good race is proved by the gap between him and Tom Compernolle (1 second), a good Belgian runner that normally takes more than 30/40 secs in every race. So, Sergey was not so determined as in other occasions, and Paul was not a European runner...
Now Sergey will run on road in Bolzano on 31st, before facing Bekele in Newcastle on 3rd of January.
And, about the programs of Tergat, don't pay attention to the official interview on the IAAF site, talkin about some possibility for competing in WCCCh. I'm ready to bet that Paul doesn't run any cross in March. London Marathon is too important for taking some risk.
Hello John, I thought you were born in the United States... a 'nativeson' of.. america??
Renato - Demadonna has other ideas of how Lebid runs as fast as he does, but keep up the PR
Bikila of the Midwest, not a nativeson
It was Tom Van Hooste and not Compernolle. I watched the race and it wasn't exciting. At least, it was better than last year
Sergey - the uncanny tactic of getting it done at the meets a la regina, out of the top ten with the testing meets.
Interesting comment at the end. Do you agree then that racing Cross in March is too risky if you are planning a marathon in April?
If so, why? This schedule of WorldCross and April Marathon has worked quite well for many athletes in the past: Lopes, DeCastella, Pinto, Castro, Roncero, Salazar(?). Though the successful Africans in recent years do not tend to try this double.
I'm intersted in knowing why you think this is not a good idea and what alternatives do you prefer?
At first, sorry to have speak about Tom Compernolle instead Van Hooste : my first informations were not correct, but nothing changes about my considerations.
Regarding World Cross Ch - Spring Marathon, my opinion is that today is very difficult to prepare both the events with the idea to be in top shape. Among the names that you said, you can find only Lopes really competitive in cross and marathon, but at that time African runners were not so many and so strong. The problem is not RUNNING cross and marathon (like for example did De Castella, Pinto, Roncero), but WINNING cross and marathon. Cross can be a good training for preparing marathon, together with specific workouts (long fast run, and specific marathon endurance) ; but, if you want to prepare marathon in the best way, you don't use all the works of shorter speed endurance that you need for beeing competitive in World Cross Country Ch.
Do you know how much can be the earn of an athlete like Tergat, winner in London ? About 300.000 Euros for starting, 100.000 if winner, other 100.000 or more for the bonus under 2:05:30, and other 50/80.000 from the Company : almost 600.000 ? (more than 700.000 USD). So, that's the reason because nobody (also Paula Radcliffe) can, and want, prepare WCCCh before a marathon.
...so racing cross is not necessarily harmful but the training needed to compete successfully at cross and marathon are different and trying to mix both might ultimately lead to failure in the marathon.
Thank-you
I find it hard to believe that a 'native son' of the worlds most successful distance nation ever is so concerned with one possible defection. This isn't the self confidence we have come to expect from kenyan distance runners. ps. I suppose Charles Kamathi, Richard Limo, Sammy Kipketer, Moses Mosop, John korir, Paul Kosgei, Simon Munyi aren't really all that talented!Its a worrying development but kenya are nowhere near being topped as no 1.
NativeSon wrote:
Nicholas Kemboi might defect to Bahrain? The reason I ask is that I am very concerned because in my view, this teenager might be our only answer to the Ethiopians in the 10,000m and with him gone, it doesn't augur well for our athletics dominance.
how many olimpic finalist, or medalist has Renato trained?
I want to explain the structure and the organization of Italian Federation from 1986 to 1998. In Italy, there was a National Center in Tirrenia (near Pisa), for middle and long distances, where National Coaches had the opportunity to put together all the best Italian runners for 2-3 weeks per month, expecially during winter periods. Every year, the leading group of coaches started to train the athletes from the beginning of November, till the end of May. Some athletes were always in Tirrenia (athletes living in permanent way in the Center), training directly with National Responsibles.
From 1986 to 1990, coaches responsible were Luciano Gigliotti, Giampaolo Lenzi, Giorgio Rondelli, Gaspare Polizzi and myself. We worked together, spending 4 hours a day in analyzing all the workouts of our best athletes, among whom the 90% were directly coached by ourselves.
Together, we discussed training programs and made some experiment in training. If results were good, also some other coach could try to use the same method. When the percentage of success was very high, this type of work could find a correct place in our official methodology. So, we can speak about an "Italian School", expecially for Marathon.
In 1990, Italian runners won a lot of medals in European Championships. At the end of the season, a delegation of 6 spanish coaches plus a doctor (Xavier Lebiarte) came to Tirrenia, spending 10 days with me for taking every type of information about our systems. They had money, approaching to OG '92 in Barcelona, and were able to organize in better way their Federation for following their top athletes, overtaking Italian movement.
The group of Italian Coaches had many important athletes at that time. Athletes had an OFFICIAL COACH (normally the official national responsible of the discipline : Polizzi was responsible of 5000/10000 with Rondelli, Lenzi of Male Marathon, I was responsible for women, and Gigliotti was the cohordinator), so we can divide best italian runners thru the coaches in this way :
RONDELLI : Cova, Panetta
POLIZZI : Antibo
LENZI : Pizzolato, Bettiol
CANOVA : Fogli, Curatolo, Brunet, Dandolo
GIGLIOTTI : Bordin, Lambruschini (and cohordination).
After '90, the group was reduced. Rondelli was no more in the group, and Polizzi remained till '93. For a period of 6 years (till '96), only Gigliotti and myself were in our National Center. But, from '92, also Gianni Ghidini, coach of Andrea Benvenuti, was in the group, for following short distances (800m).
After '96, we renewed our sector, putting some new name : Massimo Magnani (marathon) and Piero Incalza (long distances), while I changed my role in Responsible for Methodological Research and Experimentation. So, my task was to make programs, following the athletes not directly, but thru their current coaches, for planning their full activity. After 2 years, I became Technical Scientific Director of Italian Federation.
The Italian athletes that reached Finals in top events, during that periods, were :
1986 (European Ch.)
Gold : Mei (10000), Bordin (Mar)
Silver : Mei (5000), Panetta (3000SC), Pizzolato (Mar),
Fogli (Mar W)
Bronze : Antibo (10000)
Final : Cova (8th - 5000), Moro (8th - Mar W)
1987 (World Marathon Cup M)
Gold : Bettiol, Nicosia, O. Faustini, Pizzolato, Fantoni
1987 (World Ch.)
Gold : Panetta (3000SC)
Silver : Panetta (10000)
Bronze : Bordin (Mar)
Final : Pizzolato (7th - Mar)
1987 (World Ch. 15 km Women, RR)
Bronze : Curatolo
1988 (OG)
Gold : Bordin (Mar)
Silver : Antibo (10000)
Final : Fogli (6th - Mar W), Mei (7th - 5000), Curatolo
(8th - Mar W)
1990 (European Ch.)
Gold : Antibo (5000/10000), Panetta (3000SC), Bordin
(Mar)
Silver : Di Napoli (1500), Poli (Mar)
Bronze : Mei (10000), Lambruschini (3000SC),
Brunet (3000 W)
Final : Carosi (4th - 3000SC), Bettiol (4th - Mar),
Scaunich (4th - Mar W), Dandolo (5th - 10000 W),
Viali (6th - 800)
1991 (World Championships)
Final : Brunet (6th - 3000 W), Bettiol (6th - Mar),
Carosi (7th - 3000SC), Panetta (8th - 3000SC),
Bordin (8th - Mar)
1992 (European Indoor Ch.)
Gold : Di Napoli (3000)
Bronze : Viali (800)
1992 (OG)
Finali : Antibo (4th - 10000), Lambruschini (4th - 3000SC)
Benvenuti (5th - 800), Bettiol (5th - Mar)
1993 (World Indoor Ch)
Gold : Di Napoli (3000)
1993 (World Championships)
Silver : D'Urso (800)
Bronze : Lambruschini (3000SC)
Final : Panetta (6th - 10000), Carosi (8th - 3000SC),
Trabaldo (8th - 1500 W)
1993 (World Marathon Cup Men)
Silver : Bernardini, Barzaghi, Durbano, Alliegro
1994 (European Championships)
Gold : Benvenuti (800), Lambruschini (3000SC)
Silver : Carosi (3000SC), Curatolo (Mar W)
Final : Ferrara (4th - Mar W), D'Urso (5th - 800),
Di Lello (5th - Mar), Guida (6th - 10000 W),
Panetta (8th - 3000SC), Dandolo (8th - 3000 W),
Munerotto (8th - Mar W)
1994 (European Marathon Cup W)
Gold : Curatolo, Ferrara, Munerotto, Villani
1995 (World Indoor Ch.)
Gold : Di Napoli (3000)
Final : Rea (4th - 3000 W)
1995 (World Championships)
Bronze : Ferrara (Mar W)
Final : Carosi (4th - 3000SC), Guida (4th - 10000 W),
Giocondi (7th - 800)
1995 (World Marathon Cup, M)
Gold : Milesi, Gozzano, Crosio, Ruggero, Orgiana
1996 (European Indoor Ch)
Silver : D'Urso (800)
1996 (OG)
Bronze : Lambruschini (3000SC), Brunet (5000 W)
1996 (World HM Championships)
Gold : Baldini
Gold : Team Men (Baldini, Leone, Gamba)
1997 (World Indoor Ch)
Final : Di Napoli (4th - 3000)
1997 (World Championships)
Silver : Brunet (5000 W)
Final : Goffi (4th - Mar), Ferrara (5th - Mar W), Leone
(7th - Mar), Carosi (8th - 3000SC)
1997 (World Marathon Cup)
Silver : Men (Goffi, Leone, Ingargiola)
Bronze : Women (Ferrara, Fiacconi, Fogli)
1998 (European Championships)
Gold : Baldini (Mar)
Silver : Lambruschini (3000 SC), Goffi (Mar)
Bronze : Modica (Mar), Viceconte (Mar W)
Final : Fiacconi (4th - Mar W), Di Pardo (5th - 3000SC),
Longo (7th - 800), Berradi (7th - 10000),
Ruggiero (7th - Mar)
1998 (European Marathon Cup)
Gold : Men (Baldini, Goffi, Modica, Ruggiero)
Silver : Women (Viceconte, Fiacconi, Borghini, Zanusso)
This is the complete palmarees of the athletes of my group.
From 1999, I started to coach Kenyan athletes. About them, this is the list of honors :
1999 (World Championships)
Gold : Christopher Koskei (3000SC)
Silver : Wilson Boit Kipketer (3000SC)
Final : Kimwetich (7th - 800), Lelei (7th - 1500), Paul
Kosgei (7th - 3000SC)
2000 (World Cross Country Ch - juniores)
Gold : Robert Kipchumba
Bronze : John Korir
2000 (World Junior Ch)
Gold : Kipchumba (10000), Inzikuru (5000 W)
2000 (OG)
Silver : Boit Kipketer (3000SC)
Final : John Korir (5th - 10000)
2001 (World Cross Country Ch)
Silver : Lebid (Long)
Final : Kemboi (4th - junio), P. Kosgei (5th - Long),
Kipchumba (6th - junior)
2001 (World Championships)
Final : P. Kosgei (7th - 10000), John Korir (8th - 10000)
F. Barsosio (6th - Mar W)
2002 (World Cross Country Ch)
Silver : A. Cheruiyot (junior)
Bronze : Talel (Long)
Final : Nyamu (6th - short), Kemboi (7th - junior),
Jo. Kosgei (8th - short), E. Mitei (9th - long),
Mosop (10th - junior)
2002 (World Half Marathon Championships)
Gold : Paul Kosgei
2002 (European Cross Country Ch)
Gold : Lebid
2003 (World Cross Country Ch)
Bronze : Bushendich (junior)
Final : Choge (4th - junior), Mosop (6th - junior),
John Korir (6th - long)
2003 (World Championships)
Gold : Shaheen (3000SC)
Final : John Korir (5th - 10000)
2003 (World HM Championships)
Bronze : Martin Sulle
Final : John Korir (4th)
2003 (European Cross Country Ch)
Gold : Lebid
May be that I forgot something (some indoor, or youth championships), but these are the results of the athletes of my group, from whom I had the opportunity to learn very much, beeing so different like talent, mentality and ambience. This is the summary of my experiences.
Very impressive!
Renato, what happened to Robert Kipchumba?, I remember he was very good in -00 and -01, and is still a junior born 1984.
One question regarding injuries in kenyan athletes. Since they did a lot of running barefoot I know they got very strong legs, but which type of injuries do they usally get?
And I want to know more about the kenyan daily routine, sleep? activites between training, what do they do?
And do anyone of them have a hint of what they would like to do after finishing their running careers?
Thanks.
like paula ratcliff, he runs well where they don't test...
Robert, like many other Kenyans, had a bad choice after finishing the 2001 season beating Kamathi in Bruxelles with 27:25 in very difficult conditions (high humidity and hot).
He decided to go military, like Paul Kosgei, John Korir, Kipkirui Misoi, Sammy Kipketer and some other top runner.
The course lasted 6 months, and it was very difficult to train. During the last period (March 2002) all the soldiers spent one month for a surviving course around Turkana Lake, in the desert. This was the reason because all these athletes (also John Korir and Sammy Kipketer) were not able to compete well at the beginning of the season. Robert began to train in April, but, for recovering in short time a good shape, exceeded in speed workouts without base enough. So, at the beginning of May was good in two road races, then had an injury to a leg, losing completely the season. During last winter he married, and his mind was thinking of the new house. Only from last April he was in full training, growing very hard, and now is one of the best runners again.
I want to push him to HM, with the goal to run under 1 hour in April. He's preparing also Kenyan Trials for Cross, and his idea is to try to be selected for OG in 10000. For the future, I think that can be a top marathon runner.
About the stupid idea (like Paula Radcliffe) that he run very fast when is not tested, only a complete idiot can think in this way. Robert won 2 World Championships (of course, beeing always tested), and was tested every time he ran fast (like in Bruxelles, Golden League, when tried to beat the World Junior Record). Paula is tested every time she runs, because always wins or beats a record. I don't understand this continue idea about doping for some of the best runners, supported by very stupid and not thrutful statements. I invite all readers in good mental health to ignore every slander advanced by morons that are the ruin of athletics.
Yours is an amazing background, in terms of wealth of experience at the high end of distance running. It seems that many European countries have lost their competitive edge on the world stage just as the US has. It's the general notion among many that enhanced oxygen consumption abilities by people who come from generations of living at high altitude - in addition to great training, toughness, and motivation - plays an important role in the success of the best of the Kenyan and Ethiopian runners. Do you agree with that idea? Do you think that generations of living at high altitude is part of the basis of the accelerated abilities of the East African distance runners?
Renato
We talk a lot on this board about the background of Kenyan athletes (no cars, barefoot running, etc.) and its effects on elite performances later in life. What is it about Paula Radcliffe that makes her the best in the world? Please don't take this as an accusation of EPO doping. Rather, I'm truly interested in what you know about her life and history that has contributed to her success. For example, we know that Seb Coe did much strengthening with his father when he was young. Do you know of Paula doing anything like that?
Thank you.