I was about to downplay the comment about El G's bad races being 3:29 as exaggerated, but took a look at the iaaf all-time list instead.
El G went sub-3:29 15 times in his career. Soak that up for a second, and also consider that only 5 other humans have broken 3:29 ever, for a combined 14 performances among those 5. Incredible.
Coach D wrote:
The 3:30/1:43 club is one of the most elite in all athletics. El Guerrouj, Lagat, and Ovett are NOT members...but Alan Webb is.
Yeah, I´m sure they would love to have Webb´s credits instead of their own...
Your reasoning skills are wanting. Coach D is (rightly) suggesting that the premise of the thread--that Webb "lost his speed"--is preposterous. He's always been one of the fastest 1500 guys out there, evidenced by his 800m time. What's missing is likely between the ears. And by that, I mean a combination of a killer instinct and the confidence to unleash his natural talent. I don't think it's time for Webb to give up OR move up distance. I DO think it's time for him to find a coach who doesn't coddle him and has a proven record of success with top-flight milers.
idiot alert wrote:
Coach D wrote:The 3:30/1:43 club is one of the most elite in all athletics. El Guerrouj, Lagat, and Ovett are NOT members...but Alan Webb is.
Yeah, I´m sure they would love to have Webb´s credits instead of their own...
Hate to say I told you so, but . . .
the best runners in the world tend not to disappoint much, whether it is indoor or outdoor track. If Bekele shows up for an indoor 3k or 5k he is going to win most of the time. Yes there are exceptions but Webb's performances in all of these so called meaningless races has to matter.
being part of the 3:30 1:43 club means jack shit when you arent part of the "medal in a major world event" club. All of which Ovett El G and Lagat are ALL part of. A fast list of PR's is great, but it definitely loses its luster when you have no medals to compliment it. Look at all of the great times by runners who never won anything worth winning. Alan Webb's career so far has been a failure. With only one USATF against weak competition that he should have dominated every year since high school webb has yet to do ANYTHING that would suggest a successful career. After dropping out of college, running a Time Trial american record and not qualifying for the olympics behind guys like manzano and an injured lagat and lomong. Webb either doesnt know how to race or he is a complete choke. He always has been and people need to stop supporting him for his impressive PR's and start demanding that he earn his contract with nike that could be given to people who actually win.
/ Rant
gregward wrote:
Your reasoning skills are wanting. Coach D is (rightly) suggesting that the premise of the thread--that Webb "lost his speed"--is preposterous. He's always been one of the fastest 1500 guys out there, evidenced by his 800m time. What's missing is likely between the ears. And by that, I mean a combination of a killer instinct and the confidence to unleash his natural talent.
I don't think it's time for Webb to give up OR move up distance. I DO think it's time for him to find a coach who doesn't coddle him and has a proven record of success with top-flight milers.
idiot alert wrote:Yeah, I´m sure they would love to have Webb´s credits instead of their own...
Why the f*** is that preposterous? Right now he is nowhere near 1.43 speed. You can´t use an old result as an argument forever.
I did the same exact thing.Although I still don't think he'd consider 3:29 a bad race.
abacus wrote:
I was about to downplay the comment about El G's bad races being 3:29 as exaggerated, but took a look at the iaaf all-time list instead.
El G went sub-3:29 15 times in his career. Soak that up for a second, and also consider that only 5 other humans have broken 3:29 ever, for a combined 14 performances among those 5. Incredible.
There's a big difference between being able to run 2 fast laps and being able to take 10 steps and creating 5 steps of seperation. Webb has #1, but I don't think has ever had #2. I just don't think Webb is ever going to win in those save-it-for-the-last-50m races. Moral of the story, once he gets outside and can start that long 300-350 drive that he seems to excel at, he'll be fine.
idiot alert wrote:
Why the f*** is that preposterous? Right now he is nowhere near 1.43 speed. You can´t use an old result as an argument forever.
7/28/07 doesn't exactly qualify as "old result." we're talking about a guy in his prime, not as if it were his twilight when legspeed tends to diminish. The original poster asked where Webb's "speed" went. What you're arguing, idiot alert, is FITNESS. He ran 1:43 in peak, mid-season condition, as well as a 2s PB over his previous best. So it's not especially enlightening to point out that he's nowhere near 1:43.
While I do think Webb has been disappointing--and his early season is looking more like a reprise of 2008 than his stellar 2007, I think coaching is his #1 issue. #2 is his head. The situation reminds me of John Smoltz...had all the talent in the world, but his breakthrough came when he started seeing a sports psychologist, then BAM! best playoff/big game pitcher of his generation.
When I say Webb is disappointing, I don't mean his PBs. I am impressed that he has cut so much time off of his early successes in h.s. However, his poor performances in major meets is a major downer. (note, the I'm not saying he'd have to medal for me to be back in his corner, just that he has to show some racing acumen...if he got edged out by 3 top guys in a fast race, I can live with no medal. But getting beaten by duffers nowhere near his league, especially in US championships...poor.
Just for show, here are the 7 guys who've run faster than Webb for 1 mile:
Hicham El Geurrouj - 1500m/5000m gold Athens, 1500m silver Sydney, gold in 1500m '97, '99, '01, '03 WC, silver '95, 5000m silver '03 WC, plus 1500m indoords gold '95, '97, '01
Noah Ngeny - 1500m gold Sydney, '99 WC gold
Noureddine Morceli - 1500m gold Atlanta, gold in '91, '93, '95 outdoor WC, '91 indoor WC
Steve Cram - 1500m silver LA
Daniel Komen - 5000m WC '97
Venuste Niyongabo - 5000m gold Atlanta, 1500m bronze WC '95
Said Aouita - 5000m gold LA, 800m bronze Seoul, 5000m gold '87 WC, 1500m bronze '83, 3000m gold indoor '89
plus the list after him all-time in the mile starts with:
Lagat, Coe, Rotich, Scott, Gonzalez, all of whom have at least one WC/Olympic medal.
So yeah, I agree with you that something's wrong. I'm just saying that speed is not the issue here.
joe carter wrote:
There's a big difference between being able to run 2 fast laps and being able to take 10 steps and creating 5 steps of seperation. Webb has #1, but I don't think has ever had #2. I just don't think Webb is ever going to win in those save-it-for-the-last-50m races.
Bingo.
realism king wrote:
joe carter wrote:There's a big difference between being able to run 2 fast laps and being able to take 10 steps and creating 5 steps of seperation. Webb has #1, but I don't think has ever had #2. I just don't think Webb is ever going to win in those save-it-for-the-last-50m races.
Bingo.
I was about to agree, but...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it9uLpoUMksthat plus his 1:43.84 (winning it in the last 50 over a top 800 specialist) and his Paris 1500 (winning in the last 50, although I don't think it was a huge kick) shows that he can kick when he is in good form.
Honestly, I have no idea why he is so inconsistant. Maybe it is coaching. Maybe it is his head. Maybe he just hasn't learned good tactics. Maybe he is past his prime. Milers peak at 24-25, so that would explain a bit. Injuries and possibly overtraining might have something to do with it. Diet and weight are often mentioned and are certainly a factor too. Hip mobility could be an issue as well, compare his range of motion now to that of many of his 2007 races. He just looks choppy and never looks in rythm or relaxed. I really have no idea what is wrong with him, and the scary thing is I don't think he or Razco have any idea either. It is probably a combination of a lot of different things.
webb has shown that ability to quickly separate in the past, just at the strangest of places, like 700m to go in a 1500.
Fpr the post collegiate pro's, there is no such thing as a meaningless race. Your race or you train and you do not try to combine the 2. There are races of less importance and there are races used to bring sharpness, but never a meaningless race.
If you are not serious about trying to win, stay home and train until you are.
OMG, that's the speed I was talking about. Damn, that was nuts. No one in the world would've beaten him in that race. Shiiitttt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it9uLpoUMks
He looked like a shell of that yesterday. People say he's just putting in miles... That may be true, but can someone explain why would he be racing weekly if he doesn't care how he does?
You watch people like Lagat and Willis run and basically they just go out there and win the race, slow pace fast pace they just win. Webb its ohh how is his training going how many miles has he run this well you know he ran such and such time, but he has never become someone at any time where we say, heres Webb he's gonna win this race no matter what.
Lagat was not hurt at Olympic Trials. That happened in the following weeks.
joe carter wrote:
There's a big difference between being able to run 2 fast laps and being able to take 10 steps and creating 5 steps of seperation. Webb has #1, but I don't think has ever had #2. I just don't think Webb is ever going to win in those save-it-for-the-last-50m races. Moral of the story, once he gets outside and can start that long 300-350 drive that he seems to excel at, he'll be fine.
Are you serious? Webb won 2-3 considerably large races in 2007 in the last 50 meters.
There is a difference between winning in the last 50ms after running all out for the previous 1450, and winning in the last 50 after jogging the first 1100 or so. Webb can definitely do 1 but I am not sure about 2.
asfsf wrote:
joe carter wrote:There's a big difference between being able to run 2 fast laps and being able to take 10 steps and creating 5 steps of seperation. Webb has #1, but I don't think has ever had #2. I just don't think Webb is ever going to win in those save-it-for-the-last-50m races. Moral of the story, once he gets outside and can start that long 300-350 drive that he seems to excel at, he'll be fine.
Are you serious? Webb won 2-3 considerably large races in 2007 in the last 50 meters.
gregward wrote:
So yeah, I agree with you that something's wrong. I'm just saying that speed is not the issue here.
What comes to mind here is two years ago when the same class of idiots decided that Lagat was all washed up and he'll never win any medal for the USA....
It turned out, though, that Bernard went to a doctor in Germany (he has a house over there) with stomach problems. The doctor told him that he wanted those medals so bad and he was training so hard that he was literally making himself sick. Once he cut back the training volume somewhat (doctor's orders), he did what you saw in Osaka.
With Webb, I don't think the problem is his speed, but his lack of confidence in that speed. This is why, in championship rounds, he does things like going out to make a statement (to himself) in earlier rounds, or just doing exactly the things that deny him a chance to win (because he doesn't really believe he can kick with those guys). I do think there's a certain amount of paranoia, and I don't think he ever got over what happened to him in Michigan.
Last year I would have had him running the 800. I believe with his 1:43 and his endurance strength that he had the ability to sail through the rounds and do what Symmonds couldn't (Nick's strategy errors that killed his chance might not have killed Webb with his 3:30 1500). The other part of this would have been proving to Webb himself that he had the speed to contend with anybody--if he would simply be willing to wait for his chance to strike. I still think that the 800 is what Webb needs to do in order to change his mindset.