runer wrote:
I use the treadmill alot.
I have told people for years that SLOW pace on the treadmill feels faster than the road. Whereas FAST pace on the treadmill seems easier than the road.
That is my experience and most people don't seem to agree with me.
This is absolutely the case for me as well. The faster paces seem much easier, becasue they in fact are easier (no wind resistance).
I'm not sure why slower paces seem faster, but they just do.
My experience (granted, my gym has pretty decent treadmills):
Treadmills feel harder at slower distance because of mentality. I get extremely bored running at a slow pace and start thinking about how much I want to quit, which makes the run harder, even though it's technically slightly easier aerobically.
For workouts, I'm usually running too hard to be bored, so that mentality doesn't come into play and you receive the benefit of the lack of wind resistance without it being boring enough to affect you mentally.
Are you running downhill?
LM wrote:
It's the EXACT same as running outside. There is no difference physically running outside or inside except in two ways:
1) there is no draft
2) the belt and deck are of a different material then gravel, dirt, concrete, or any other surface.
The actual running mechanics themselves are completely identical to running outside. You cannot jump more upward so the belt moves further with each stride and conserve energy.
I'm afraid that's not quite true. When running outside you are required to propel your centre of gravity up and down against gravity in the vertical plane and and also forward against the frictional forces slowing it down in the horizontal plane.
On a treadmill you still do the work in the vertical plane but the work in the horizontal plane is different.
Like you correctly say, air resistance and ground friction will be different but another effect is that the treadmill does work moving your foot underneath your centre of gravity rather than you doing the work moving your centre of gravity over your foot. This leads to a different neural pattern. Accelerating your centre of gravity horizontally will be associated with an energy cost greater than not accelerating it. I have no idea what the difference in power output would be but I'm guessing it's marginal compared to the vertical component, especially if you have good economy and don't overstride (i.e. if you don't decelerate your centre of gravity each step).
Two of the best runners in my club started with running on treadmills at the gym before moving outside. I've always wondered if this helped them learn good elastic return in the vertical plane prior to stepping outside.
Also, why did this thread get resurrected?
If you ease into speed and don't go right into your goal pace it feels more normal. Tightness in hips that some experience can be from a lack in terrain variance, working muscles in the same repetitive way with no variance can be cause of tightening. On hill running workout you start out flat and go up, but when you descend you are still going up, until you return to flat. It might help to go -3 for a few minutes to allow hamstrings to lengthen. You may also want to slow down speed when running downhill. I always do cool down at -3 decline and as slow as needed to sound and be smooth.
I think how our brains process the need to stay up with constant speed of the belt with the threat of falling off the back, coupled with the ego's issue of not wanting to give into decreasing the speed are two of the biggest differences to running on tracks or trails. Third is consistency of foot strike not changing much on treadmill, which I think can be used to an advantage for working through injury.
A real plus of the treadmill is holding pace when doing incline workouts and teaching running at pace. Treadmills are a great training tool. Not so fun for long runs, but a good alternative when needed.
Taniger wrote:
I have verified the speed on my treadmill by putting the front wheel of my bike on it and checking against the bike's speedometer. It was accurate withing .1 mph across all speeds. That being said, I still think it "feels" faster at 7.0 than the running same speed on the ground.
That doesn't account for the weight of your body on the belt with each stride.
If I remember, Jack Daniels Running Formula book tells you how to calibrate treadmill.
The Nightfly wrote:
I've used them for years - and I totally agree with you.
5 minute pace on the treadmill (12 mph) is easier than on the track, but 7 minute pace on the treadmill feels alot faster than 7 minute pace outside.
I've been using a treadmill for more than a decade. I do speed work on treadmills. 12 mph on a treadmill (1%incline) does not feel easier than than on a track....to me. I always use 1% incline. I use a heart rate monitor, the BPM is about the same.
In my experience, with 1% incline, the effort is about the same to me.
UK Limey runner wrote:
LM wrote:It's the EXACT same as running outside. There is no difference physically running outside or inside except in two ways:
1) there is no draft
2) the belt and deck are of a different material then gravel, dirt, concrete, or any other surface.
The actual running mechanics themselves are completely identical to running outside. You cannot jump more upward so the belt moves further with each stride and conserve energy.
On a treadmill you still do the work in the vertical plane but the work in the horizontal plane is different.
Like you correctly say, air resistance and ground friction will be different but another effect is that the treadmill does work moving your foot underneath your centre of gravity rather than you doing the work moving your centre of gravity over your foot. This leads to a different neural pattern. Accelerating your centre of gravity horizontally will be associated with an energy cost greater than not accelerating it. I have no idea what the difference in power output would be but I'm guessing it's marginal compared to the vertical component, especially if you have good economy and don't overstride (i.e. if you don't decelerate your centre of gravity each step).
Also, why did this thread get resurrected?
No. This just isn't the case. It truly is exactly identical.
Think of it like this:
The two states are basically two inertial frames – whether the road is moving under you (treadmill) or you are moving over the road (normal case) the output of energy from a given speed is identical. Remember that on the road you have to apply a force in the forward direction to get you moving forwards while on the treadmill you have to apply a force in the forward direction to stop yourself being moved back and falling off the back of the treadmill.
If you simply bounced up on the road you would land where you took off. Also if you bounced up on the treadmill you would land on the same spot on the moving belt from which you took off although this would be further "back" compared with the ground. This is because at the moment of take off you had a velocity towards the back of the treadmill.
cftp5400 wrote:
Running is EFFORT based. If you are running on a treadmill and it's too easy...go faster. I'm guessing you'll discover it can be very very very uncomfortable...
I concur.
Ah, the age-old debate.
Logic says that it SHOULD be identical. Experience says that it is NOT identical.
Treadmills suck, I blew out both my knees for a while by overstriding at 12mph, which has never been possible for me to do on land.
Now I go slower, but at grades between 5-10%. Seems to work, and I don't care how equivalent or not it is to running over land.
I do about 90% of my running on the treadmill and have done so for years, running up to 60 MPW on them. I wear the Garmin Forerunner 305 with a calibrated foot pod. The speed reported on the top of the line treadmills I use at my local gym are way off according to my Garmin foot pod which is dead accurate on track and road. However, I've been running long enough to know that 8.0 for example equals X mins. per mile pace, etc. etc. I used to keep a mental note of what the different treadmill speeds actually were but I gave that up as a useless exercise. Now, I just generally go by effort and use the heart rate to alert me as to when to start the next interval. After a sprint, I walk at about 2.5 MPH until my heart rate gets back to 70% of max before starting the next interval which usually takes about 1/3 the distance of the interval itself.
This has to be the goofiest treadmill thread in the history of letsrun. I guess I never thought about using a garmin to see how far I was running on a treadmill.
A 10 miler tomorrow will give me 300 miles in the last 28 days. (according to the built in display)
LM wrote:
No. This just isn't the case. It truly is exactly identical.
I know it's tricky to get your head around but I'm afraid it's not. There is a clue in that you plug your treadmill into a power socket and it uses juice. It contributes energy to the system.
7 mph is about 8:35 pace not 9:00. That being said if you are not used to a treadmill often you will shorten your stride and feel like you are running faster.