To those of you who have raced the steeplechase...

The steeplechase is the best race in track not only because of all the spectators who line up to watch people fall, but also because anyone can win. Due to the intensity, the jockeying for position, and the barriers (specifically the water barrier) a huge favorite can be upset with relative ease.

soggy wrote:

WHAT WHAT WHAT??? Steeple is all about conservation of energy! You don't run around flapping your arms because it's counterproductive, so why would you waste energy jumping higher or throwing your body all over the place. Plus if you strenghten the associated muscles you won't fatigue as quickly. Hurdle form and good water barriers are the KEY to this race.

As far as the race goes I was at a "open" meet and aparently they were just expecting the usual locals to show up and yes the barriers were one height. This was back around '90 or '91 befoer they really has adjustable barriers.

You don't understand the event at all.

The steeplechase is not a hurdle event, it is in, and of, its own. The hurdle events are distant cousins to the steeplechase. They are well-rehearsed soliloquies: step-step-step-step-jump - as opposed to the steeplechase, which is an acrobatic improv. Pack dynamics are much different in the steeplechase than in any other event; this is especially evident in the approach to the barriers where you must be completely focused and spatially aware of your physical relationship to both the rapidly approaching barriers, and to the competitors around you, all the while mindful of the split second decisions you'll need to make to come through cleanly. Mistakes in the steeplechase are brutal and bloody. There is no other event in track and field like it. You can't practice that - you either have it or you don't.

I set an American record in the event in 1977 without ever, not even once, practicing hurdling, and only running the event once -- two weeks before. It's a running event, not a hurdling event. Prepare yourself to run and chew gum at the same time, and you'll be able to handle the steeplechase, that is, if you got any yarbles, Billy Boy?

Good. And I'd imgine that there were numerous records set by people who had superior jumping ability, that set many "american records" that had their ass handed to them buy Dick Fosberry. Actually I'd say with better form you would have gone faster. True the event does come down to who ever is the strongest at the end BUT if you are able more efficient over the barriers you will waste less energy therefore having more at the end of the race. And yes pack dynamics definately effect ability to "hurdle" correctly BUT the ability to efficiently hurdle with either foot, Which comes up due to the competitors around you and the fact that it's not a step step step jump race allows you to carry your momentum through the barriers and not be surging all of time once again wasting energy. Then there's the water barrier very few people really know how to carry thier speed through the water but that's another discussion. Look at it this way, give me two runners that finish with in a few seconds of each other week in and week out in the 3K. Have them do the same training for two weeks, BUT have the slower runner do drills every day, and work on improving their ability to hit the water barier and carry their momentum. In two weeks, I'd bet the slower runner will show more improvement, with hurdle practice, than the "runner" will show just by continuing to run the same workouts. Care to retort, Billy Bob?

Decent hurdle form and the ability to change lead legs helps you maintain momentum in the race. If you watch inexperienced steeplers, they appear to come to a stop momentarily after hurdling the barriers (especially when fatigue starts to set in). Getting comfortable going over hurdles also eliminates the unnecessary 'height' that many runners have when clearing barriers. I'm not the most talented 3k runner, but in steeplechase I can put distance on girls who would normally beat me because their form is sloppy or they hesitate at the water jump.

Steeple is a fantastic race, and absolutely a Real Race.

My experience is that the people who are most scared of the races are those who absolutely can\'t hurdle with both legs. Most steeplers have a \'strong\' side or a \'preferred\' leg to lead with, but you really need to be somewhat comfortable if you end up needing to lead with the other leg. It makes a huge difference in your confidence and will help your race times because of that.

It\'s been mentioned a bunch, but accelerating into the water jump is also imperative. Especially for a beginner, or slower steepler. You need a certain amount of momentum to hurdle anything, but the water jump especially.

Form doesn\'t matter so much, as long as you land in a position that allows you to resume running easily and as long as it\'s good enough to keep you from clipping the barrier. Lots of top steeplers have crappy form too.

I can\'t say I ever excelled at many sports other than running. But I did always like jumping over things. before I had steeple races or training to do, I\'d jump over retaining walls, garbage cans, etc on regular runs. That probably doesn\'t hurt to keep doing as informal training too. It\'s good to practice hurdling when your legs are already tired (like after your workout or run for the day).

Malmo - your argument doesn't make sense per se. This is akin to saying that, because Alan Webb can run a 3:55 mile off of pure base mileage, that simply running tons of miles at a moderate pace is the best way to train for a mile race. While his accomplishment would be impressive, and a darn fast mile, everyone agrees that doing tempos, intervals, etc will make him a better miler. So while it's very impressive that you could run an American record without doing any hurdle work, pretty much all coaches agree that being familiar and comfortable with hurdling will improve a runner's steeple time considerably.

Also note that form work is greatly different from the step training short hurdlers do. When I say "hurdle work," what I'm talking about is doing drills that teach you how to jump a 36" height most efficiently and comfortably, i.e. using the correct lead and trail leg form. I never count steps/pay attention to them at all when I do hurdle work, and I don't know of a steepler who does. It also helps greatly to be used to hurdling tired; for this reason much of my hurdle work consists of doing the last few reps of an interval workout over hurdles, or doing hurdle repeats after a tempo run, et cetera.

They say that training should be as specific to your event as possible - the steeple is no exception. Doing hurdle reps at race pace, doing hurdle reps while tired...almost every coach in the nation will agree that these elements are important to maximize your potential in the steeple.

Steeplechase = 99% Running/Endurance ability and 1% style/form. Any of you who want to argue the percentages feel free. However, remember the higher the "form" points you assess and therefore take away focus from the "running" component will undermine your potential.

You'll look marvelous though as you run slower.

Actully you can address both with out taking away from either. But you do your way I'l do mine and I hope to see you on the track

sogggy wrote:

Look at it this way, give me two runners that finish with in a few seconds of each other week in and week out in the 3K. Have them do the same training for two weeks, BUT have the slower runner do drills every day, and work on improving their ability to hit the water barier and carry their momentum. In two weeks, I'd bet the slower runner will show more improvement, with hurdle practice, than the "runner" will show just by continuing to run the same workouts. Care to retort, Billy Bob?

I think you misunderstood Malmo's position.

Dude you can work your form without inhibiting your distance training at all. I do. Also most people's steeple times are the same as their 2 mile, which for me is about 7 percent as compared to my flat 3k time. Times vary by the individual obviously, but for every person the difference the barriers make is going to be somewhere in that range. Way more than 1%.

You're one of those old guys who is frustrated that they didn't do things right "back in their day", or that you never "reached your potential", or that you got injured before your breakout race, or whatever your excuse is, so you come onto letsrun and tell everyone they're pussies for thinking about the little (or not so little) things. Just because we focus on form, or do a lot of stretching exercises, or think about nutrition, doesn't mean we aren't mentally tough.

I agree with the poster who said it's ok to step on the barrier...

...if you're a DIII runner.

The way I read it, and many others apparently, is that just being a strong runner is enough to win the steeple on all levels, hence the I set the American Record blah blah blah, with little practice comment. I say not. Given two equally strong runners, having one continue to train for strength, speed etc. and have the 2nd runner do equal training but teach him/her how to hurdle/run the water barrier, I say "hurdler" will win. So maybe the two week analogy was too short lets say 6 mos. I still predict the same outcome. Practing an event that requires a specific skill, and negelcting to practice that skill, will always hinder your performance. But I guess that's one of the cool things about our sport, many ways or theroies (none of them perfect) to train.

I've only skimmed over this thread, but there's one point that should be made. While I love the event, and it is truly one of the best in the sport, you need to be very very careful. Steeplechasers are so prone to injury because most distance runners lack the flexibility they need to keep from getting injured. You get into an invincibility mindset thinking "since it's so easy for me to clear the barriers, I don't have to worry about not being that flexible".

You can go from the top of the world to out of the sport so fast (e.g. Dan Lincoln, the best steeplechaser this country has seen).

It's a race that can be pretty hard on the joints, which probably accounts for a lot of injuries. Not the kind of event you can run every week. By the end of the season it can start to take its toll.

jeepers wrote:

You're one of those old guys who is frustrated that they didn't do things right "back in their day", or that you never "reached your potential", or that you got injured before your breakout race, or whatever your excuse is, so you come onto letsrun and tell everyone they're pussies for thinking about the little (or not so little) things. Just because we focus on form, or do a lot of stretching exercises, or think about nutrition, doesn't mean we aren't mentally tough.

Like all runners I thought I could have run faster etc. I didn't suggest that you are "pussies" for focusing on small details. I merely gave my opinion on the relative weight of the 2 components and that running fitness is by far the key issue. I'll stake my several years of running on a national and international basis that I have a more valid perspective on this than most.

oldsteeplestud wrote:

Like all runners I thought I could have run faster etc. I didn't suggest that you are "pussies" for focusing on small details. I merely gave my opinion on the relative weight of the 2 components and that running fitness is by far the key issue. I'll stake my several years of running on a national and international basis that I have a more valid perspective on this than most.

Neither your international experience nor mine will ever matter to a crowd that can't wipe its own ass without written instructions. They've already got it all figured out.

While my comparatively good hurdling form gave me a certain amount of confidence and ability to relax in races over a decent, injury-free collegiate steeple career, I also remember at about that time the emergence of Sammy Koskie, I believe, as a world class steepler who went over the barriers with both legs together tucked to one side and barefoot at about a minute faster than I ever ran the steeple. The race really is about running smart and hard and just doing what you need to do to get over the barriers.

There are some of us who know that we have not got it all figured out and greatly respect your career Malmo. A few of the others will come to respect your vast knowledge of the sport as they mature.

Thanks you Orville. You're the wisest and most mature one who posts here.