What the heck is good form?

marijuologist wrote:Good form is a myth. All that matters is what happens during the beief fraction of a second that your foot is in contact with the ground and that is totally beyond one's concious control except to the extent that footwear selection f***s everything up. Percieved differences in form between athletes are primarily the result of genetic factors which are not subject to change with training. Those runners who appear to be particularly elegant in motion are so because they are born with a favorable somatotype, just like with every other human ability and every f***ing thing else in life. Almost every species of animal ambulates in some fashion and none of them has to learn the nuances of so-called proper form.

POD, quoted for truth

On the other hand, no animal spends more than half its life in a position very unnatural for its species, i.e. sitting on a desk, parked in front of the computer, in a car, etc.

The natural motion patterns are overridden in time if enough of that happens and "good form" has to be re-learned. Just watch Team in Training on your local bike path. No amount of miles will fix that.

I agree though that this is only important for long time couch potatoes. I yet have to see a healthy, well developed 10 year old in need of running form adjustment.

Animals do not wear running shoes with big heels and support either.

Ministry of Silly Walks wrote:

I yet have to see a healthy, well developed 10 year old in need of running form adjustment.

Dinsdale? Dinsdale!

Yeah, didn't Lydiard say to watch children running if you wanted to see how it should look?

Here's an example of a simple routine for drills starting about 4 weeks before a competitive season begins (precede it with 12-20 minutes of progressive warmup jogging):

Phase 1 (4 weeks)

High Knees: 2 x 30m (2 weeks), 4 x 30m (2 weeks)

Quick Steps: 2 x 15m (2 weeks), 4 x 15m (2 weeks)

Heel Walks: 2 x 10m (2 weeks), 2 x 15m (2 weeks)

Goose Steps: 2 x 40m (2 weeks), 4 x 40m (2 weeks)

Traveling Lunges: 2 x 15m (1 week), 3 x 15m (1 week), 4 x 15m (2 weeks)

High-Knee Skips: 2 x 40m (1 week), 3 x 40m (1 week), 4 x 40m (2 weeks)

Phase 2 (5 weeks)

High Knees: 2 x 30m (5 weeks)

Rapid High Knees: 2 x 20m (5 weeks)

Heel Walks: 2 x 20m (5 weeks)

Goose Steps: 2 x 40m (5 weeks)

One-Legged Half Squats: 2 x 10 each leg (1 week), 2 x 15 each leg (1 week), 2 x 20 each leg (3 weeks)

High-Knee Skips: 2 x 30m (5 weeks)

Alternate-Leg Bounding: 2 x 40m (1 week), 3 x 40m (1 week), 4 x 40m (3 weeks)

Phase 3 (4 weeks)

High Knees: 1 x 30m (4 weeks)

Rapid High Knees: 1 x 20m (4 weeks)

Heel Walks: 2 x 15m (4 weeks)

Goose Steps: 2 x 40m (4 weeks)

One-Legged Half Squats: 2 x 10 each leg (4 weeks)

High-Knee Skips: 2 x 30m (4 weeks)

One-Foot Hops: 2 x 30m (2 weeks), 2 x 40m (2 weeks)

* Do drills and warmup strides with the wind (if any)

* Focus on technique but relax, relax, relax as much as possible and breathe, breathe, breathe

* Recover well between each set of drills so as to maintain mental focus and preserve proper technique

* Follow the routine with 4-8 progressively faster 10-15 secs. buildups or even-speed strides to regain specificity of running

* The number of drills reduces (often replaced by more buildups or strides) in Phase 3 because mid-season workouts become more demanding, and to get accustomed to requiring a less extensive plyometric warmup routine

* The warmup routine (drills and strides combined) is tailored to personal preference for the remainder of the season following Phase 3

* Recommended to cut total number of reps in half prior to the hardest or most important running workouts and prior to important races (also subject to personal preference)

* Pre-workout static stretching should be very light if done at all, normally stopping slightly short of full range of motion for any given stretch

This is an example of a routine for mainly long distance runners. It looks like a fair amount on paper, but the entire routine (including all the recovery periods between the drills and strides but not including the warmup jog) should take no more than 25 minutes (usually less). If done twice per week (prior to a medium effort or hard workout), the total should amount to no more than 8% of weekly workout time for mature runners at normal adult mileage levels. This illustrates the place of drills and strides in the hierarchy of the overall running routine - it's still a very minor part, isn't it? But this small devotion to variety can help you warm up pretty effectively and thoroughly and can make some inroads into developing explosive strides with minimal ground contact time. Just think of it as getting a complete warmup, because that's mainly what it is for distance runners.

These drills have absolutely no value and such activities are a prime example of the kind of superstitious thinking that has dominated the arena of athletic training for decades. Doesn't matter in the slightest who does them or recommends them. The actions in question bear literally no resemblance whatsoever to actual running and are based on a faulty concept of what happens mechanically when you run. If they have any effect at all, these drills will cause skill confusion, meaning they will impair an athlete's form as he conciously attemtps to incorporate aribitrary, unnatural movements into his stride.

So how would that warmup routine fit in with the bulk of the running?

Here are three examples of 2-week periods (leading up to races) for a good journeyman college 5k runner (who hit 14:21 indoors and 14:08 outdoors) during the very early indoor season, for the middle of the season and for the peak of the season (schedule does not include secondary runs of two-a-days):

Early season

Su Medium length easy run

M Warmup jog, drills/strides, 3 x 15 min. starting @ high-end pace (easier than a focused "tempo" effort), progressing to tempo pace, then to crest load pace (about the pace for a 40-42 min. race) / 2-3 min. rest periods, 4 x 150m @ 24-ish / 45 secs. rest periods, cool-down jog

T Medium length easy run

W Warmup jog, reduced drills/strides, 60 min. progression to high-end pace (about 35 min. at high-end pace), 3 min. rest, 6 x 15-20 secs. progressively faster buildups, cool-down jog

Th Medium length easy run

F Warmup jog, drills/strides, 8-10 x 1,000m starting @ 3:10-ish and progressing -> sub-3:00 / 60-90 secs. rest periods, cool-down jog

Sa Medium length easy run

Su Medium length easy run with a few light to medium speed buildups included near the end

M Warmup jog, reduced drills/strides, 60 min. progression to high-end pace (about 35 min. at high-end pace), 3 min. rest, 6 x 10-15 secs. progressively faster buildups, cool-down jog

T Medium length easy run

W Warmup jog, drills/strides, 20 x 400m @ 74-ish -> 66-ish / 40-45 secs. rest periods, cool-down jog

Th Medium length easy run

F Short to medium length easy run with a few light to medium speed buildups included near the end

Sa RACE

* That's 3 days with full drills and 3 days with reduced drills (including the RACE day) in this 14-day period

Mid-season

Su Medium length easy run

M Medium length easy run with a few light to medium speed buildups included near the end

T Warmup jog, drills/strides, 2 x 20 min. @ high-end/tempo pace / 3 min. rest periods, 4-6 light to medium speed buildups, cool-down jog

W Medium length easy run

Th Medium length easy run with a few light to medium speed buildups included near the end

F Warmup jog, drills/strides, 5 x 1,600m @ 4:50 -> sub-4:35 / 2:30 rest periods, cool-down jog

Sa Medium length easy run

Su Warmup jog, reduced drills/strides, 45 min. light progression to high-end pace (about 20-25 min. at high-end pace), 3 min. rest, 6 x 15 secs. progressively faster buildups, cool-down jog

M Medium length easy run

T Medium length easy run with a few light to medium speed buildups included near the end

W Warmup jog, drills/strides, 4 x 400m @ 70 -> 62 / 1 min. rest periods, 3 min. break after last rep, 4 x 800m @ 2:16 -> 2:08 / 1:30 rest periods, 3 min. break after last rep, 2 x 300m accelerations / 2 min. rest periods, cool-down jog

Th Medium length easy run

F Short to medium length easy run with a few light to medium speed buildups included near the end

Sa RACE (underdistance)

* That's 3 days with full drills and 2 days with reduced drills (including the RACE day) in this 14-day period

Late season

Su Medium length easy run

M Warmup jog, reduced drills/strides, 45 min. light progression to high-end pace (about 20-25 min. at high-end pace), 3 min. rest, 6-8 x 100m progressively faster buildups, cool-down jog

T Medium length easy run

W Warmup jog, drills/strides, 2 x 2,000m @ 5:50, 5:45 / 3 min. rest between each, 5 min. walk/jog after last rep, 3-4 short strides, 2 x 1,200m @ 3:20, 3:15 / 3 min. rest between each, cool-down jog

Th Medium length easy run

F Warmup jog, drills/strides, 2 x 20 min. @ high-end/tempo pace / 3 min. rest periods, 4-6 light to medium speed buildups, cool-down jog

Sa Medium length easy run

Su Medium length easy run with a few light to medium speed buildups included near the end

M Warmup jog, drills/strides, 4 x 400m @ 72 -> 64 / 45-50 secs. rest periods, 3 min. break after last rep, 4 short strides, 1 x 1,000m @ 2:38, 4 min. walk/jog, 2 x 300m accelerations / 2 min. rest periods, cool-down jog

T Medium length easy run

W Warmup jog, reduced drills/strides, 3 miles light progression to high-end pace, 3 min. rest, 4 x 400m @ 72 -> 66 / 1:30 rest periods, 4 x 200m @ 34 -> 30 / 1:30 rest periods, cool-down jog

Th Medium length easy run

F Short to medium length easy run with a few light to medium speed buildups included near the end

Sa RACE

* That's 3 days with full drills and 3 days with reduced drills (including the RACE day) in this 14-day period

So this guy was usually getting 3 days per week which involved drills, but only 3 days in each full 2-week period used the complete routine. That's only about an hour (including recovery time between sets of drills/strides) out of 10-12 hours of workout time per week (including secondary A.M. runs) for this 90-110 mpw runner. The time spent doing actual drills and strides during the warmup routine (not counting recovery between sets) was probably about 30 minutes per week (note there were more strides following some workouts and on some easy days). That's not a big percentage of the overall mileage, yet regular devotion to the drills provides a thorough and spiced-up warmup, fosters better footstrike/stride mechanics, and maintains those mechanics over time even during periods devoted to more endurance running and less race pace or speed (note how slow some of those 400m and 1k reps were in the early season relative to this guy's 5k best).

Don't you know that the value is not in the drills themselves but in how they are included within the overall framework? How can we begin to explain the gestalt to those who examine only the constituents as stand-alones? Now that is a real mode of faulty thinking that has dominated physiologists' attempts to intrude into athletics training for decades.

People who do these things regularly in conjunction with the other things become snappier, exhibit improved running economy, experience fewer injuries, feel mentally sharper, and (perhaps most importantly for racing purposes) respond to missteps, jostling and pace changes better than their peers who don't do them. With just the right attention to the right drills, this is a predictable and repeatable result.

Placebo? Not a chance. But even if it was, any medicine that works is good medicine.

Ah! Now you would have a point there except for the fact there aren't enough of them in each warmup routine to reinforce incorrect movements. The inclusion of the post-drills slower-to-faster buildups and the subsequent workout always rewires running specificity. Given the hundreds of hours per season runners spend making the exact same motion thousands of times per hour, it's actually preferable to use a variable motor skill set and slightly different muscular involvement to warm up on occasion. This is an example of what I call the "something has to give" rule. You won't find an athlete with the highest max VO2 and highest running economy, for example. Some characteristics preclude others, perhaps as a protective mechanism. Nor will you maximize every measurable aspect of running fitness simultaneously. Something has to give. Things also eventually have to give if every movement you make is a weight-bearing running movement. So think of warmup drills as "cross training" in that regard - bringing a fresh physical twist and mental perspective.

Involving antagonistic muscles (some with more recruitment, as in heel walks, and some with higher rate coding, as in goose steps) is also helpful in the area of injury prevention via keeping a favorable strength ratio.

Peak recruitment involving peak forces or continuing to muscle failure does create skill confusion - weightlifting, for example. But replication of a few elements of the whole complex movement at sub-peak forces and with brief duration will not create skill confusion. Not a chance (gee, that's the second time I said that - QFE, I suppose).

OK so let me see if I've got this right. The inclusion of primitive tribal dance moves as part of a warm-up routine has all of these benefits that you made up in you head using terms that sound good, but have no actualy meaning, and these beliefs are fully justified by a 300 word block of text that is so overblown with utterly ridiculous physio-babble that nobody else is willing or even able to read through it all.

Look, I don't believe in trying to correct "bad form" either, but there are some things that can help your body to do that for itself, not in the sense that it is becoming more efficient, but that is becoming stronger and able to handle more of the stresses, thus making running more effortless. If you do something hard, such as drills, you are getting stronger in some area, in some way. There is no way this won't happen unless you do it to the point that you completely exhaust yourself and do more damage than good. If you are getting stronger in any area, don't you think that would help with running? Practicing different muscles in different ways just makes you stronger in order to handle the changes that occur while running. Things like strides will always encourage you to develop your stride so that it is, not more efficient, but generally stronger and quicker. All these things are what you are truly trying to accomplish through drills and other excercises. Range of motion is also one aspect that is kept in mind, and that is a solid concept of running that can be developed and increase your strength while running. That's what it's all about.

marijuologist wrote:

OK so let me see if I've got this right. The inclusion of primitive tribal dance moves as part of a warm-up routine has all of these benefits

Yes. You've got that part right, Cheech. You get a bong hit!

... (unintelligible, nothing worth quoting really) ...

Hey, Rasta, I was as surprised as you are that adding in a few seemingly counterintuitive actions improves people's economy and helps prevent injury, so I demanded further investigation. Well blow me if it didn't come out the same way every time.

This is the way it works in the real world, Spliffy. What am I supposed to do about it? Report a falsehood? Don't shoot the messenger.

do you even run? have you ever broken 5:00 in the mile?you say the same things about psych meds, but self medicate yourself in your momma's basement.

marijuologist wrote:

OK so let me see if I've got this right. The inclusion of primitive tribal dance moves as part of a warm-up routine has all of these benefits that you made up in you head using terms that sound good, but have no actualy meaning, and these beliefs are fully justified by a 300 word block of text that is so overblown with utterly ridiculous physio-babble that nobody else is willing or even able to read through it all.

OK so let me see if I've got this right. The inclusion of primitive tribal dance moves as part of a warm-up routine has all of these benefits that you made up in you head using terms that sound good, but have no actualy meaning, and these beliefs are fully justified by a 300 word block of text that is so overblown with utterly ridiculous physio-babble that nobody else is willing or even able to read through it all.

You come across there exactly like a creationist trying to refute arguments for evolution. Would you mind explaining WHY drills designed to desensitize the muscle spindles and GTOs would not have an effect?

Again, I mainly have people in mind who hardly can extend their thighs past their hips anymore, not because of any disability, but because the stretch reflex kicks in way too early after years and years in a flexed position.

But if drills work for those people (and they do) why wouldn't they also have a beneficial (albeit smaller) effect on advanced runners?

Bramble & Rose - what's "Dinsdale"? That went over my head.

Dinsdale is none other than the fictitious Dinsdale Piranha, who appeared in a sketch in the same 1970 Monty Python episode as the "Ministry of Silly Walks" sketch.

The link explains it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piranha_Brothers

El Guerrouj certainly seems to think they're beneficial as evidenced in picture # 3 and # 4:

http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/display_article.php?id=203

Drills are absolutely beneficial to any training program.

Bramble - nice detailed outline of a good drill program.

Oh gosh well if El Guhroosh does drills then they must be correct, because he isn't genetically gifted or anything, his success is entirely attributable to the exact specifications of his trainig program, and he would have been no higher than the #6 guy on his high school cross team if his brilliant coaches had not taught him to kick himself in the butt with his trail leg while marching in place. Praise Allah for karioka and graciously allowing us to teach our spindle cells to fire properly. God is great!

The book chi-running is good for people who don't have/have poor form and for avoiding injuries. I suggest that.

look at the way erin donohue runs. form is all so relative. some people look smooth as hell running 5 minutes for the mile. others look like they are tearing out satan's soul to break 4:20.

i've always thought you should run the way that is most natural to you. i really don't think you can lose if you do this. running is such a mental sport...if you are worrying about crap like keeping your head aligned with your spine and that is making you feel even more uncomfortable on top of the hellish pain you are already putting yourself through, is that really going to get you to the finish line faster? running, especially distance running, moreso the farther you go up, is about seeing how far you can push yourself, and if you are wasting energy feeling uncomfortable just because someone thinks it looks smoother and more pretty then you probably aren't getting your maximum performance.

i've always thought you should run the way that is most natural to you. i really don't think you can lose if you do this.

As alluded to, that might be so if you grew up as nature intended and didn't get f*cked into flexion by modern life style. Do you know what background the OP has? Right. Neither does anybody else here.

Look around next time you're strolling through a mall. Look at how people walk. How their shoulders are bent forward and how their necks are flexed. This is how people end up after years and years of computer work, driving SUVs with the shittiest seat ergonomics that a human mind could conceive and slouching in front of the 50" TV. And don't think for a moment that YOU are not affected by this. Your body, your nervous system, your myofascia will adapt to what it perceives as your raison d'etre - and that is sitting on your ass. Even if you put in 100 miles a week you spend much more time in a quasi-fetal position than running.

I run ultras (yeah, haha, what a snail I am) but to give you an example - I know of at least 2 cases where people couldn't finish 100k because the muscles in their lower back gave out. Literally gave out, they couldn't stay upright anymore -result of running hunched over. A thing that could've easily been avoided by (gasp!) adjusting running form.

Drills and form improvement would have a much less pronounced effect on shorter distances, but I'm sure there would be some IF the running form is obviously flawed.

I do agree that there is no perfect running form but there most certainly are glaring defects that no amount of mileage running in that style will miraculously fix.

Make of it what you want.

The Bramble and the Rose wrote:

Dinsdale is none other than the fictitious Dinsdale Piranha, who appeared in a sketch in the same 1970 Monty Python episode as the "Ministry of Silly Walks" sketch.

wow was I way off. I thought it had something to do with Dinsdale, NZ...