greatest white runner? VIREN

Was talking to Ian Steward from Scotland(one of a number of good British distance runners of the seventies and said he race Pre about 10 times and never lost once against him,said he never rated Pre at all.>>

The same Ian Stewart who won a bronze medal nipping Pre at the end of the 5000 in Munich? I suppose his motto is "better to play it safe and get bronze than to go for the win and place 4th".

because stewart had a chance in hell of beating gammoudi or viren. do you usually go for the win against people you have absolutely no chance of beating? prefontaine had the talent to beat those guys, stewart didn't. quick jerking off over without limits.

I think Zatopek, Nurmi, Gunder Hagg, Seb Coe, and Viren are the top dogs. Their credentials speak for themselves.

The idea that Kennedy, Pre, Virgin and Lindgren should be included in that company is almost laughable to me. Between the 4 of them they set a grand total of 0 world records I believe and racked up a total of 0 medals in Olympics. Don't get me wrong, I like these guys. But among the very top white runners ever? Not a chance.

Carlos Lopes qualifies as white

It's a clear fact that everyone knew Viren was blood doping at that time just like the Finns are still doing today, for example, 7...not 1 or 2 or 3...but 7 Finns got caught with blood doping at the 2001 World Cross Country Skiing Championships. This doping was endorsed by the coaches and doctors. And the whole team was banned for life.

Again this not even in the 70's, but as recent as 2 years ago. This year still...2003...another finn was caught with blood doping.

Sorry but no credibility there for any Finn from 70's up...let them blame themselves.

When the IAAF or Olympics talk about heroes how come they don't mention Viren. They talk of Gabre and Kiptanui and other africans but not Viren. Viren doesn't even get invited to any IAAF functions to present prizes or events like that. Why do you think that is?

chuck d wrote:

because stewart had a chance in hell of beating gammoudi or viren. do you usually go for the win against people you have absolutely no chance of beating? prefontaine had the talent to beat those guys, stewart didn't. quick jerking off over without limits.

chuck d, you just hit the nail on the head. Prefontaine was unquestionably a great runner who tragically died too young. We'll never know if he could have beaten Viren in '76. However, his rating as "the best ever" is based far more on a movie than reality.

I guess if someone had made a movie about Viren instead of Prefontaine, everyone would think he was the best ever.

Maybe Viren blood doped, maybe he didn't. But it was certainly something more than that which made him get up after falling in the 12th lap of the 10k at Munich, then go on to win in a new world record.

And win the 5k a few days later.

Then do the same double at the 76 Olympics.

Definitely up there with the all-times greats athletes of any era/nation/colour/event... whatever... (Even though he couldn't handle Foster's mid-race surge in the 74 European Champs!)

Craig Virgin

There's no "maybe" to Viren's blood doping. He blood doped.

Hicham EL G is the best withe runner!

I agree. Nurmi was the best white runner since the 1800s; based on his dominance against over other competitors (for several years) and his Oly achievements. Zatopek and Viren are a close second if OLY achievements are the center of focus. Behind Nurmi, Herb E. of Australia was tough as nails and never beaten at the 1500m or mile, but he had a shorter international career that Nurmi. Snell can be a favorite based on his three OLY golds and willingness to compete head-to-head against the best in races around the world during non-OLY years. Gaston Roelants had a stellar career internationally, as did the two Swedes, Anderson and Haag. Ryun, Coe, Ovett, Lopes, Deek all ran in many races at or close to the top. I would give Coe the nod for his two Oly golds of that group, though.

Also, though it was a different era, competitors Walter George, Alf Shrubb, Hannes Kolehmainen, and Ron Clarke could all be on the top of the list of best white distance runners.

Dieter Baumann! nuff said.

Euro wrote:It's a clear fact that everyone knew Viren was blood doping at that time just like the Finns are still doing today, for example, 7...not 1 or 2 or 3...but 7 Finns got caught with blood doping at the 2001 World Cross Country Skiing Championships. This doping was endorsed by the coaches and doctors. And the whole team was banned for life.

Again this not even in the 70's, but as recent as 2 years ago. This year still...2003...another finn was caught with blood doping.

Sorry but no credibility there for any Finn from 70's up...let them blame themselves.

You would do well to know what you are actually talking about. However, these boards dont make it a necessity.

All the other countries warned their athletes that there were going to be tests. The Finns did not, and they sprung the tests onto their athletes and banned them.

2 years not life. All those busted are allowed to compete again.

More than 50% of all medal winners at the 2001 Ski Championships were tested positive for a substance. Go look it up, the data is available to you, if you look for it. Only the Finns show any creditability by banning their athletes for 2 years.

When people are caught it means the system is working, not failing.

Name the country you are from and we shall see how lilly white they are when it comes to drugs.

By the way, I am not Finnish, but just somebody who sees the truth and doesn't talk from lack of knowledge.

Salvatore Antibo, Alberto Cova, Michel Jazy, Anontio Pinto,

Mehdi Baala, Francesco Panetta, Stephano Baldini, Fernando Mamede, Fermin Cacho.

Is it possible to have one discussion of the best runners without degenerating into drug allegations?

Is it possible to keep the issue of race out of our discussions?

Greg in Toronto wrote:

Is it possible to keep the issue of race out of our discussions?

That would be nice, too.

GP wrote:

Is it possible to have one discussion of the best runners without degenerating into drug allegations?

this is what have destroyed these boards from being once a decent set-up to now the ramblings of idiots who have nothing reputed or anything of substance to discuss so they make mumblings without creditability.

As for Viren getting up after falling, this is called SISU, something the then Finns had plenty of. This drive was what made the war against the Russians one of the most remarkable aspects in history. This is also the reason why the country never submitted to communist russia.

The whole of Finland must have been drugged up.

And again, I am not Finnish, just someone who takes the time to know what drives certain people to heights that seem unimaginable.

I think if you took all of the top runners of all time and threw them in a meet, Seb Coe's the only white man who could have a good shot at winning his event.