JOHNNY GRAY TRAINING

This is actually my biggest complaint about the Igloi system. The principles are really interesting, but the details are obscured to the point that it's hard to even start experimenting. Any discussion I've seen comes down to "so what are some example relative paces?" "It's more of a feeling, you can't even start to discuss times. You just know."

I'm all for effort based training, but correlating it to race paces (even a broad range) gives people a starting point. "Feel your arm carriage" is great advice once I know what to look for, but it is worthless without some kind of calibration.

Pretty much agree. Always find Igloi threads interesting but hard to correctly implement. Especially find hard while training solo, since efforts aren't focused on stopwatch. Still love seeing sessions like the one for KD for sheer volume of intervals.

MoVB

J.Gray understood the guys, at least those with somewhat similar abilities as him - KD, Solomon, etc. But at UCF it was the 5k/10k girl who ran well - seemed not to understand what the 800m girls needed to do if they couldn't handle the volume that he did and assumed that everyone could do as well. Again, benefited the 5k/10k girl only, the others were exhausted.

not trying to be glib, but your complaint is actually the strength of the system, and why it's difficult to state and/or duplicate, but also why it's not for everyone. the coach has to be intelligent and attentive; the athlete has to have faith. if the athlete needs constant verification (and validation) other than the races, this is not the system for them. joe douglas would give us the effort, and we generally knew how fast we were going even without watches (yes, others would surreptitiously time certain reps, and, at times joe would show me splits from someone else's workout), but ultimately--and i think the true secret to its success--it allowed the coach to adapt on the fly depending on how we looked. i'm sure joe had a number in mind, say 10x400 at 56, but if you looked tired he could cut it down to 8 (or even fewer); if you looked great, he could make it 12x400. unlike what someone posted above about sparing egos or giving false confidence, i think it saved us from our compulsions. besides, there were workouts where he'd absolutely show us splits--frequent time trials, various all-out efforts, etc.--and he was accurate; he had that classic coaching stance where you could actually see him stop his watch as you finished, so no, i don't think he was giving us a "quick" watch.

i have found that even 26 years removed from training with joe, i have an almost metronome-like feel for pace (at least when fit), and i attribute that to my 7 years with smtc. i race without a watch, i train without a garmin; at various points in my 40s i could run 4 mile tempos on the track in the dark, start my watch, press the split key at each 800, and run perfectly even pace without seeing a split until after i finished. it's like "using the force"...

that's my story and i'm sticking to it,

cush

Definitely a strength when you have Joe Douglas, Laszlo Tabori, or Igloi himself to supervise. Blockhead like me could never get it right! Sadly don't have those guys around SMCC when I'm working out now. Guess I'm a few decades too late :(

MoVB

Carl trained at UCLA. Johnny trained at SMC.