did fam really just call the kenyans dirty?

coach sez wrote:

how many times do i have to repeat myself. marion jones. wiki her. she got away with it AT THE OLYMPICS. and if you believe that modern tests have a better chance of picking up drug cheats, then you should realize that drugs always have and probably always will be one step ahead of the tests.

Then that same logic applies to Fam because he will be AT THE OLYMPICS.

coach sez wrote:

IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT PEOPLE AHEAD OF HIM ARE CHEATERS, STOP TRYING TO CONVINCE ME THAT THAT IS WHAT FAM SAID.

Then who is he talking about?

I hope you're not a real coach working with real athletes. You have a horrific attitude and awful people skills.

That said, who is Fam talking about? Since you always use Marion Jones as an example, does that mean everyone in her race was cheating?

The steeplechase community is a small one, Fam is saying he knows who cheats.

Who is it? How does he know this? Has he seen documentation?

If he has seen documentation, why isn't he filing grievances with committees? He can help solve the problem, apparently, but he refuses to do so. He just spouts off saying he hopes to beat some cheaters.

Which cheaters? Who?

Coach sez is an arrogant elitist, therefore all coaches are arrogant elitists according to Fam logic.

Who are the cheaters? C'mon coach, you're siding with Fam, you're saying there's tons of cheaters out there. Which ones? Who?

Quit making blanket statements unless you can prove it.

Who are the cheaters in the men's 3,000 steeplechase?

fam is awesome, great runner, much more accomplished than "northwest run", and not afraid to bring attention to the recent shortcomings of the sport of track and field (of course there are dirty cheaters out there, c'mon dude). plus he looks rad.

this whole thread is pretty much one whiny guy angry at one small quote -- and he (nw run) is loving the attention he's getting for it.

Just a comment on this argument going on here:

Coach Sez, you are the kind of person who thinks he is the shit because you insult others (ad hominem) and therefore think your insults are clever and "own people." To the outside observer you are doing nothing of the sort. You are merely making yourself look like a huge douchebag yourself. Based on what you write in these forums, you are either a huge asshole in real life who gets little respect from others and has few friends, or a total self aware loser who comes on internet forums purposely acting like a tough guy to feel better about his miserable existence.

To Northwest, I applaud you for trying to keep the discussion civil and rational for someone who doesn't deserve it. Don't waste your time with someone who is likely trolling or doesn't have the maturity to engage in a conversation with you.

Thanks Phelps. As a fan of U.S. running and all running, I hope Fam does get a medal. I'm not a fan of Fam, but I hope he does well.

I also hope he shuts up and just runs, and if he keeps calling out athletes, he needs to name them.

Funny how I never hear the great African runners complain about things. They just run and win.

So letsrunners are criticizing Fam for saying that people who run faster than him are possibly doping?

Isn't this a case of the pot calling the kettle black? Isn't that the hallmark of letsrun.com? According to these boards, Alan Webb runs well = doping. Lagat runs well = doping. Every world record holder = dopers.

In Fam's case, it was probably an off-the-cuff remark that probably wasn't intended to accuse the kenyans of doping, just to point out that there are still cheaters out there and he hopes to beat a few.

the only thing more embarrassing than reading Northwest's arguments is the fact that some people agree with him.

"There's going to be people out there who cheat. I live in reality. But maybe I can sneak in and steal it from one of those dirty jerks and get the bronze."

Let's try to go through this quote logically.

"There's going to be people out there who cheat"

I think we can all agree with this statement. Drug use has become increasingly more prevalent in track, and all sports for that matter. PEDs run contrary to the spirit of sports, and especially to the spirit of the olympics. This is 100% valid and factually based.

"But maybe I can sneak in and steal it from one of those dirty jerks and get the bronze"

Clearly Fam isn't referring to the 1st or 2nd place steeplechaser as dirty jerks because he's not stealing the bronze from them. They never possessed the bronze because they got 1st or 2nd. So its absolutely 100% clear that Fam isn't calling the 1st or 2nd place runners dirty or drug users. There is absolutely no evidence in his quote that points to this idea. He is simply stating that there are going to be drug users in the Olympic Final, which is most likely the case, and he is hoping that he can manage to get Olympic Silver despite this fact. While some of us might disagree with the legitimacy of an Olympian stating that they are only aiming for bronze while at the same time making accusations towards other runners, he is in no way accusing the entire field of cheating.

By the way, its not so easy to win an Olympic Gold, so stop saying "Just win" Its a difficult thing to do, almost as difficult as you processing rational arguments and responding in a logical manner, but this is clearly impossible.

No one can argue with this. this makes sense. argument over.

Daws wrote:

He is simply stating that there are going to be drug users in the Olympic Final, which is most likely the case...

So, you are saying that if Fam makes the final there is a possibility that he is a drug cheat also?

haha, i suppose so, there is certainly the possibility that he is a drug cheat, good call

WHO are the "dirty jerks" he's hoping to defeat?

If you're in business and you accuse someone of insider trading, you better have it documented.

If you call the cops on someone, you better be right.

And if you're calling people cheats and jerks, you need to know who it is.

Which runners in the 3,000 steeplechase are jerks and cheats? Is Fam one of them? Why does he get a free pass for making such a broad statement without any semblance of fact?

So he's picking and choosing: Fam is stating that he KNOWS the 1st and 2nd place runners are not cheats (not sure how he knows this), but who he hopes to beat for the bronze will be the cheaters.

So by his logic, the guys ahead of him are not cheats (may or may not be, we have to wait for the drug tests), and the people behind him are cheats. All of them? Some of them? One or two of them? Which ones? Why are the first two guys different than the rest of the field?

So let's say Daws is a banker. One of Daws' co-workers at the bank was caught embezzling funds, he's a cheat. Therefore everyone who works at Daws' bank -- including Daws -- is a cheat, by Fam logic. Or perhaps just the middle management are cheats, everyone above Daws, well, they're not cheats. But everyone below Daws are cheats. Picking and choosing.

I'm not sure why you think blanket statements like this are fine.

So whoever gets 1st and 2nd ahead of Fam are clean, everyone behind him (saying he gets the bronze) are not cheats? Strange thinking. And if he doesn't get the bronze, is it a dirty jerk who beat him? What if the bronze medalist is clean? Will Fam apologize to him? How does he know that the third place finisher (if not Fam) is a cheat?

And how can anyone side with that illogic?

This discussion will be the most attention Fam gets this year. Certainly more than we he misses finals in Beijing.

Sure he is. He used the phrase "one of those dirty jerks" which more logically implies that he has already discounted the fact that some of the cheaters will beat him and get gold and silber, but hopefully he can beat one of the other cheaters and get bronze. Why would he think that the two guys who beat him are clean and the guys he beats are dirty? That would imply he thinks he can beat ALL of the dirty guys and his quote says he hopes to beat at tleast one of them.

Daws wrote: Let's try to go through this quote logically.

"But maybe I can sneak in and steal it from one of those dirty jerks and get the bronze"

Clearly Fam isn't referring to the 1st or 2nd place steeplechaser as dirty jerks because he's not stealing the bronze from them. They never possessed the bronze because they got 1st or 2nd. So its absolutely 100% clear that Fam isn't calling the 1st or 2nd place runners dirty or drug users. There is absolutely no evidence in his quote that points to this idea.

I dont know I think fam may hae a shot at making finals in all his races so far this season hes had little competition to run with and he's run them all from the front. And his times are pretty good for doing just that 8:20s i think that with competition to help him out he could go 8:15 and no beard and shorter hair 8:10. But the beards intimidating so he needs it in the final.

"So let's say Daws is a banker. One of Daws' co-workers at the bank was caught embezzling funds, he's a cheat. Therefore everyone who works at Daws' bank -- including Daws -- is a cheat, by Fam logic. Or perhaps just the middle management are cheats, everyone above Daws, well, they're not cheats. But everyone below Daws are cheats. Picking and choosing."

No, that is completely, 100% not true. The fact that some people cheat (which everyone including you, me and Fam agree upon) does not mean that everyone is a cheat. Nowhere did I say that, nor did Fam, you made that up on your own. That was completely your idea.

And by the way, illogic isn't a word. You're making a valid point, he shouldn't be making statements like that, but the way you organize your arguments, the word(s) you make up and the personal attacks you make (calling coach an arrogant elitist) stop most people from recognizing your points as rational.

Webb 2.0 wrote:

This discussion will be the most attention Fam gets this year. Certainly more than we he misses finals in Beijing.

+++

You are not getting it.

What are you even asking?

If he was calling someone a drug cheat, then you WOULD know WHO he was accusing.

BUT HE'S NOT.

He's not "calling the police on someone"

He's saying "there are criminals out there, but hopefully they won't victimize me"

Do you see the difference?

"Why would he think that the two guys who beat him are clean and the guys he beats are dirty? That would imply he thinks he can beat ALL of the dirty guys and his quote says he hopes to beat at tleast one of them."

Thats a good point. He's not saying for certain that the 2 who beat him are cheaters, but he's also not saying for certain that they're clean. To me, it seems that he isn't passing judgement on them specifically, but I suppose its up to personal interpretation.

I'm clean, and I was clean when I set the WR too. There has never been a world class steepler caught doping... ever!