Bill Rodgers vs. Frank Shorter

I appreciate those corrections. So that makes 10 runners who went into Los Angeles with PRs of 2:10 or faster (maybe there were more). Does anyone other than the guy who posts under "48" think that the Munich marathon field was anywhere close to the Los Angeles field in terms of quality?

Munich anywhere close to '84 field?

Yes, Shorter, Lismont, Wolde, Moore, Roelants, Hill, Clayton, Foster, Farrington, Drayton, Lesse all multiple world rankers.

Jerome Drayton did not run in the Olympics in 1972. He was having a bad year and failed to qualify for the team. John Farrington did not run in Munich, either.

Ten guys (at least) went into the 1984 games with marathon PRs of 2:10 or faster. Two guys went into the 1972 games with PRs of 2:10 of faster, and both of those guys were past their prime, based on their actual performances during and after the 1972 Olympics.

Rodolfo Gomez was in the 1984 Olympic marathon. His PR going into the race was 2:09:12 from the previous year. Gerard Nijboer (aka Geard Nisboer) was also in the 1984 marathon, and he had a PR of 2:09:01 from 1980.

So far, we have 12 guys in the 1984 Olympic marathon going into the race with PRs of 2:10 or better (actually, 2:09 or better) versus two guys in that category in Munich.

But I guess we don't look at actual PRs, right?

Avocados Number wrote:

Well, since you're correcting yourself, Takeshi Soh had run about 2:08:55 (not 2:10), and his twin brother Shigeru had run about 2:09:05. Both were on the '84 Japanese Olympic marathon team with Seko.

Just to follow up, here are the results from Fukuoka in 1983, which served as the Japanese Olympic marathon trials:

1) Toshiko Seko 2:08:52

2) Juma Ikangaa 2:08:55

3) Shigeru Soh 2:09:11

4) Takeshi Soh 2:09:17

5) Alberto Salazar 2:09:21.

Living in the Past wrote:

In 1984, you had... Carlos Lopes (2:08)... All you have to do is look at the PRs going into the race in 1984 to see that it, for one, was far more competitive than the 1972 field.

Just think - the winner of the 1984 Olympic Marathon, Carlos Lopes in now 60 years old!!. Amazing to win the World XC and the Olympic Marathon in the same year, at 37 years old to boot!

Lopes looks great for 60 years old. A little pudgy, but very good for 60 years.

http://www.urbi.ubi.pt/arquivo/2007/378-2007-05-01/media/378desp_1_maio.jpg

http://clix.segundasedicoes.expresso.pt/imagens/ed34/fotos/media/F24-a14.jpg

Living in the Past wrote:

Jerome Drayton did not run in the Olympics in 1972. He was having a bad year and failed to qualify for the team. John Farrington did not run in Munich, either.

Ten guys (at least) went into the 1984 games with marathon PRs of 2:10 or faster. Two guys went into the 1972 games with PRs of 2:10 of faster, and both of those guys were past their prime, based on their actual performances during and after the 1972 Olympics.

Is that the best way to judge a given field given the 12 year difference?

Nobody was in Shorter's league in the '72 Olympic marathon. If Clayton and Hill had been as good then as they were in '69 and '70, they MIGHT have beaten Shorter. If Drayton had been there in top form, he might have beaten Shorter.

As for your argument about the unfairness of comparing times that are 12 years apart, if runners are coming to the Olympics with faster PRs, how could that not be considered an increase in the quality of those fields? If the guys are getting faster, they're harder to beat, right? Maybe you're saying that marathons should be judged only in relation to the competition at the time. By that standard, 1984 and 1996 were equally competitive and both were more competitive than 1972. Just look at how far apart the 1st and 8th finishers were in 1960 and 1972 compared to 1984 and 1996.

In 1960, 6 minutes and 6 seconds separated the winner from number the number eight finisher. In 1972, it was 4 minutes and 36 seconds. In 1984, it was 2 minutes and 18 seconds. In 1996, it was 2 minutes and 19 seconds. I don't see how you can plausibly argue that the 1972 Olympic marathon had one of the greatest fields of all time.

Men's Marathon. Olympic Games 1960

1. Abebe BIKILA (ETH) 2:15:16.2 WB

2. Rhadi Ben ABDESSELEM (MOR) 2:15:41.6

3. Barry MAGEE (NZL) 2:17.18.2

4. Konstantin VOROBYEV (RUS) 2:19:09.6

5. Sergei POPOV (RUS) 2:19:18.8

6. Thyge TOGERSEN (DEN) 2:21:03.4

7. Abebe WAKGIRA (ETH) 2:21:10.0

8. Bakir BENAISSA (MOR) 2:21.22.0

Men's Marathon. Olympic Games 1972

1. Frank SHORTER (USA) 2:12:19.8

2. Karel LISMONT (BEL) 2:14:31.8

3. Mamo WOLDE (ETH) 2:15:08.4

4. Kenneth MOORE (USA) 2:15:39.8

5. Kenji KIMIHARA (JPN) 2:16:27.0

6. Ron HILL (GBR) 2:16:30.6

7. Donald McGREGOR (GBR) 2:16:34.4

8. Jack FOSTER (NZL) 2:16:56.2

Men's Marathon. Olympic Games 1984

1. Carlos LOPES (POR) 2:09:21

2. John TREACY (IRE) 2:09:56

3. Charlie SPEDDING (GBR) 2:09:58

4. Takeshi SOH (JAP) 2:10:55

5. Rob de CASTELLA (AUS) 2:11:09

6. Juma IKANGAA (TAN) 2:11:10

7. Joseph NZAU (KEN) 2:11:28

8. Djama ROBLEH (DJI) 2:11:39

Men's Marathon Final. Olympic Games 1996

1. Josia Thugwane (RSA) 2:12:36

2. Bong-Ju Lee (KOR) 2:12:39

3. Eric Wainaina (KEN) 2:12:44

4. Martin Fiz (ESP) 2:13:20

5. Richard Nerurkar (GBR) 2:13:39

6. German Silva (MEX) 2:14:29

7. Steve Moneghetti (AUS) 2:14:35

8. Benjamin Paredes (MEX) 2:14:55

Living in the past you need to really re-read what 48 offered with some degree of comprehension. No where does he compare the two fields,you did. The "guy" stated among and that is the key word.He cited his sources which you casually dismissed. For those that aren't familiar with those names they are considered authorative in the field of distance running. So take a deep breath and read the posts as they are not as personal attacks. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

First timer: As for who was a better marathoner my criteria is championship medals so I would have go with Shorter. Gold , silver and four Fukouka titles is hard to beat.

senior runner123 wrote:

Living in the past you need to really re-read what 48 offered with some degree of comprehension. No where does he compare the two fields,you did. The "guy" stated among and that is the key word.He cited his sources which you casually dismissed. For those that aren't familiar with those names they are considered authorative in the field of distance running. So take a deep breath and read the posts as they are not as personal attacks. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Since your reading comprehension is obviously better than mine, please point out where "48" used the word "among," which you call the "key word." I can't find it anywhere.

I actually quoted what "48" said about the 1972 field being "one of the best fields" ever assembled. Maybe you need to reread THAT. Anyone can see that I brought up the 1984 field as a counter-example to his assertion about 1972 having one of the finest fields ever. He provides no quotations or dates to support his appeal to the experts. So you're wrong about "48" having cited his sources. He has attributed a position to some impressive names without citing anything. Let him provide some exact quotations and dates.

All I'm trying to do is use facts to draw conclusions about runners and races. An example of a personal attack would be your condescending remark that I should "take a deep breath." Avocado's Number corrected me on some "facts" regarding the Japanese, and I thanked him for it. When the facts change, I change my mind. The fact that the the Soh brothers had faster times before Los Angeles than I had indicated only reinforces my opinion that the marathon field in 1984 was better than the one in 1972. (Thanks Avocado's Number.)

By the way, the marathon at the Moscow Olympics was slightly tighter than the ones in 1984 or 1996. Only 2 minutes, 9 seconds separated the winner from eighth place. But surely the Los Angeles marathon was more competitive, coming only four years later and with many more guys having run under 2:10 before the race. Off the top of my head, I count three sub-2:10 guys here.

Men's Marathon. Final. Olympic Games 1980

1. Waldemar CIERPINSKI (GDR) 2:11:03

2. Gerard NIJBOER (HOL) 2:11:20

3. Satymkul DZHUMANAZAROV (KYR) 2:11:35

4. Vladimir KOTOV (BLR) 2:12:05

5. Leonid MOSEYEV (RUS) 2:12:14

6. Rodolfo GOMEZ (MEX) 2:12:39

7. Dereje NEDI (ETH) 2:12:44

8. Massimo MAGNANI (ITA) 2:13:12

I also was a little surprised to see the statement that historians consider "the '72 OG marathon field to be one of the finest collections of talent ever assembled for an OG marathon," although it did have a number of the best marathoners of the late '60s to early '70s.

The '84 field was extraordinary. (Another sub-2:10 runner in the field that I don't recall you mentioning was Geoff Smith, who ran a low-2:09 at NYC in 1983. He had a horrible race in the Olympics, sandwiched between his two consecutive wins at Boston.) One interesting aspect of that race was the emergence of Djibouti, a country that few had ever heard of and that was participating in the Olympics for the first time. I don't recall if Djama or Saleh had yet broken 2:10 at that time, although they were certainly capable of it. Oddly enough, the one guy who might have beaten them all was Steve Jones, who set the world record in Chicago just a few weeks later.

I was wondering about Geoff Smith. I was thinking that he made the British team for Los Angeles, but I didn't see him in the results. Did he DNF? (In 1983, he had a stirring duel against Rod Dixon, and it was his first marathon ever. I think he ran the fastest time ever for a debut performance.)

I looked into the Djibouti guys regarding their performances before the 1984 Olympics. Djama and Saleh were indeed in the race, but their faster times came later. Djama Robleh's PR going in was 2:11:25, set in Lyon, France, a month before. That was a national record for Djibouti; ergo, Ahmed Saleh's PR was slower than 2:10 going into Los Angeles.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Qb125O62NVQC&pg=PA346&lpg=PA346&dq=djama+robleh&source=web&ots=z1LBpKUzQ2&sig=Tr-17I-Jngu4KRA-h1L4NOZdWKQ

I agree that Steve Jones might have been able to win the Olympic marathon in 1984. He also might have also been able to win the Olympic marathon in 1988, which was held on October 2. The British Olympic Association offered him a spot, but he turned it down, saying that he wouldn't have time to prepare.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE3DA173DF932A0575BC0A96E948260

As you no doubt remember, Jones ran 2:08:20 about a month later on a warm day at the NYC Marathon (November 6). Marty Liquori was the announcer, and he said that it was the greatest marathon performance of all time, considering the weather.

You also probably recall that Jones had cut the logos off of his shoes and uniform, since Reebok had dropped him, thinking he had no chance to win.

Before I get corrected by desert rodent, I should point out that I wasn't saying that Karel Lismont was an unknown in the 1972 Olympics, since he had won the European Championships the year before in Helsinki and had, after all, beaten Ron Hill. He was probably better known than Eckhard Lesse.

1971 European Championships in Helsinki, Finland

Mens - Marathon

1. Karel LISMONT (BEL) 2.13.09.0

2. Trevor WRIGHT (GBR) 2.13.59.6

3. Ron HILL (GBR) 2.14.34.8

4. Colin KIRKHAM (GBR) 2.16.22.0

5. Gaston ROELANTS (BEL) 2.17.48.8

6. Pentti RUMMAKKO (FIN) 2.17.58.8

Living in the Past wrote:

As you no doubt remember, Jones ran 2:08:20 about a month later on a warm day at the NYC Marathon (November 6).

I was there. It wasn't even close to a warm day. It was very cool for Jone' race, high in the 50s.

Geoff Smith DNFed in the '84 Olympic marathon.

Yes, I remember the 1988 NYC marathon, and I agree that it was arguably the best marathon performance ever at the time. Jonesy was incredibly strong. Fred Lebow stiffed him on bonus money for not breaking Al Salazar's race record, even though Al's "record" was set on a short course. I think you are right about the weather; I seem to remember that it was pretty warm.

Jonesy himself thinks of the '85 Chicago race as the one where he really could have crushed the world record. He ran the first half in 61+, and finished just one second off Lopes's world record run earlier that year in Rotterdam. Jonesy's performance was clearly superior to Lopes's; Lopes's race was with pacers, whereas Jonesy ran the last 24 miles by himself, with the second half largely into a headwind.

Geoff Smith finished 96th in Los Angeles. (I simply didn't look far enough down the list.)

Three other guys who had run 2:10 before Los Angeles were the Swede Kjell-Erik Stahl, the Tanzanian Agapius Masong, and the Belgian Armand Parmentier. At the world championships in 1983, Stahl ran 2:10:38, Masong ran 2:10:42, and Parmentier ran 2:10:57. So that makes 16 runners who had run 2:10 or faster before the 1984 Olympic marathon in 1984. (And 13 who had gone under 2:10.)

Dummy wrote: I was there. It wasn't even close to a warm day. It was very cool for Jone' race, high in the 50s.

Here's an account of the race conditions from the New York Times:

"Jones and Bettiol were followed by most of the 22,912 runners that began at the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge in Staten Island on a surprisingly clear, warm and humid day that was ideal for spectators but another hardship for the runners."

(Yeah, you were there alright.)

Avocados Number wrote:

Geoff Smith DNFed in the '84 Olympic marathon.

I think you're right. He's listed as "96th," but apparently he's simply bunched in with some other guys who dnf'ed.

As for Jones's half marathon split in 1985, I think it was 1:01:42. And he went through the first 10k in around 29:30. It's amazing that he didn't implode in the second half of the race. I thought Jones did have pacers in 1985 but that they couldn't keep up! I agree that he could have broken Lopes's world record on that day.