Ramaala says American runners are innately equal to the African: I say that\'s B.S.!

Dipshit, it doesn't matter what the world record was when Nenow ran. If he had trained the same way today, he would still run 27:20. Genetic drift does not happen that fast so that Nenow, if he came 20 years later, he would be a gentically superior specimen relative to how he was, and that alone would catapult him into the 26:30 range, given the same amount of training. Remember, he was still losing races back then. It's not like he was winning by 200 meters. Hell, guys have been training the same way since the late 60s. Ron Clarke ran 27:39 and Dave Bedford ran 27:30, and they both piled in mega-mileage. Now, maybe if those guys were doing this off of 60 miles a week, you'd have an argument, because training methods would have improved dramatically. But that just simply isn't the case.

Tell Dathan Ritzenhein that we are all created equal. That guy trained hard from a very young age, he was the most talented and ballyhooed prep distance runner in at least a generation, he is probably the highest paid American runner currently, and he cannot run one 5k as fast as the Africans can run two in a row. Either there are dramatic genetic differences, or there are no genetic differences and the Africans are on drugs as many have postulated. Oh, and, not every kid eats McDonalds and plays video games all day. I, for one, played soccer, as many kids do, from the age of about 6 or 7, probably piling 3-5 miles a day of running, I had a paper route when I was 13-15, riding up and down some serious hills, and I became a distance runner and ran 100+ mile weeks at high intensity. And I could never be anywhere near the Kenyan "D" team, comprised mainly of 15 and 16-year olds.

I have a question for you THE ROCK. Are you saying that all races are genetically equal? Or just that genetics don't play a role in how good you are at distance running?

There are more HS kids competing in XC in the US than in Kenya (soccer is by far the most popular sport in Kenya) and still Kenyans outrun americans all the time. Explain that, you retarded idiot (BTW, you are not being funny).

im going to agree with the rock, you people who spend your time complaining about genetic differences are a bunch of pussies. africans grow up in an atmosphere that is more conducive to running. they live at altitude, begin running at an early age etc. your argument about playing soccer from the age of 7, that is not the same as running long distances as an early age, sorry. also, when it comes to sports, africans use running as a way to overcome poverty. americans do not. also, there are many other alternatives to running in america. as far as sports go, the africans play soccer or run... that is about it. also, the africans eat foods that are going to keep their body weight down. the vast majority of americans do not eat optimally for distance running. as far as the world record at the time when nenow ran having nothing to do with it. your argument was just plain stupid. grow a brain. in any case, if you spend your time worrying about why africans are so fast, you're just wasting brain energy. who cares, one way or the other.

I'll tell you why this entire argument is naive. How many caucasian males have run sub-10:00 for the 100 meters or sub-20 for the 200 meters? How many of them have made an Olympic team? African Americans dominate the sprints, and have you seen what they eat and how they grow up? Hell, the football players at my old college training table lived on McDonalds every day and night of the week, but somehow they managed to maintain their six-pack abs. It was the joke du jour on the cross country team. Hell, I ran 100 miles a week and did 200 situps daily, and my abs still weren't that defined. Not genetic, my ass. that's like saying that everyone is born with the same IQ.

I can't wait for Gerry Lindgren to come on here and tell everyone they just need to start running 250 miles a week. Gerry Lindrgen could be 25 years old today, still running 250 miles a week, and you know what he'd run for 5k? 13:44, same as he did 40 years ago. And he would be lapped, which is funny.

man, shut up wrote:

your argument about playing soccer from the age of 7, that is not the same as running long distances as an early age,

Genius, that was merely a minor point. All kids spend time outside running around when they are toddlers. My 21-month old probably puts in 3-4 miles a day herself. It's not like she eats cookies and watches Sesame Street all day. No kid has the attention span to do that at such a young age.

it doesn't matter that americans have more people running xc than kenya. the majority of those americans who run xc just do it for something to do and don't take it all that seriously. most teams are made up of a few 17 minute or faster runners, while most are 19 min. or slower. in kenya, they run TO LIVE. they are using it as a means to get money so they can actually eat and not be poor. also, they begin training at an early age and, to further show numbers don't mean anything, the training is intense and they weed out the wannabes early on. essentially, all those who are still training by the age of 18 are GOOD because they were able to overcome how difficult the training is. as far as what the rock says, he is dead on. by calling him a "retarded idiot" you are just showing your ignorance. it has little if nothing to do with race. it is about socioeconomic status. if you look at sports in the us, blacks dominate the money sports and it is not because of their skin color, its because they, as a majority, are poor and are using these sports as a way out of poverty. just like the kenyans are using running as a way out. people who grow up middle class probably have a hard time grasping this but being poor breeds desperation and that is why poor people commit the majority of crimes, such as deal drugs etc. and that is also why a great deal of athletes who become big came from poverty. a person can go either way, up or down, in that situation. and again, the reason race is factored into this is because 1. kenya is a poor country and the majority of them living there are black and 2. a great deal of people living in poverty in the us are poor. its about money, not race, just like the rock said. saying it is all about race and genetics is just an easy cop out.

Hey Rock,

I grew up in an impoverished country, eating simple foods and sometimes nothing at all. I also walked around all day and I ran since I was 9 years old. But my limited talent only got me mediocre times such as 7.58 3k and 13.55 5k.

I trained really hard, too. But that's all I had in the tank apparently.

man, shut up wrote:

your argument about playing soccer from the age of 7, that is not the same as running long distances as an early age, sorry.

Genius, that was just a minor point. It's not like all kids just eat cookies all day from the time they can crawl and watch Sesame Street. Hell, my 21-month old easily puts in 3-5 miles a day of running herself, before she gets tired. Toddlers just don't have the attention span to sit around all day. Moreover, do you know how many kids play soccer and run a 10k a day from a very early age? Heck, even if they are playing football or baseball or tennis, they are still running. Kids are active from a very young age. With the possible exception of Alan Webb, no other white American comes close to closing the gap on the Africans, despite the early swimming or soccer background, the high volume of training, and the meticulous core and other training exercises. Ironically, the top DISTANCE runners in the US in the last five years are AFRICAN -- KK 2:05 marathon, Lagat sub-3:50 mile and sub-13:00 5k, Meb 10k Ar and Oly silver medal, and Abdi who will likely take Meb's 10k record this year.

Apparently you don't know what genetic drift is either. I ran 29:36 for 10k, the same I would run 20 years from now, everything else being equal, and the same I would have run 40 years ago, everything else being equal, fool.

The book "Taboo" explains a lot of this. As noted in this thread: Most every gold medal 100 meter winner (sans Valery Borzov) since 1964 is from West African descent.

Most of the top distance runners since 1968 (not all) are from East African descent. I don't believe in coincidences.

Why most Americans don't believe in genetics: We've been told since we were toddlers that hard work can make us anything we want to be. That thinking means 5-foot guys who can't jump or run can make the NBA if they just work hard.

Yes, hard work will take you far. Genetics will take your farther. Genetics plus hard work will maximize your talents.

West Africans descendents have more fast-twitch muscles than those of European descent -- it's been studied and proved. East African descendents have more slow-twitch muscles and those who grew up in the Rift Valley have larger lung capacity. Again, studied and proved.

But Americans stick with their hard-work mantra: "I'm a 34:00 10K guy, but if I just load up the miles, I know I can beat Paul Tergat!"

your 21 month year old does not run 3-5 miles a day. you are just painting yourself as a complete idiot. shut up. also, if you are not willing to admit that lifestyle differences between africans and americans play a part, then you're an idiot. and sorry, but there is a reason world records improve over time. a person that was a great runner and ran 28 minutes in the 1970's would most likely be considerably faster in today's day and age because of improvements in training techniques, technology (shoes, tracks), among other things. i hope the rock comes back here and tears your ass apart. keep preaching rock, i love ya.

man, shut up wrote:

your 21 month year old does not run 3-5 miles a day. you are just painting yourself as a complete idiot. shut up. also, if you are not willing to admit that lifestyle differences between africans and americans play a part, then you're an idiot. and sorry, but there is a reason world records improve over time. a person that was a great runner and ran 28 minutes in the 1970's would most likely be considerably faster in today's day and age because of improvements in training techniques, technology (shoes, tracks), among other things. i hope the rock comes back here and tears your ass apart. keep preaching rock, i love ya.

First of all, you are clearly not a parent, or certainly not a good one if you are to make that statement. Secondly, where did I ever say lifestyle differences don't play a part? Of course they do, but they do not make up for the huge gap you are trying to close. Thirdly, training methods have not improved much as you assert. For that matter, they took a step backwards in the US for awhile when the experts "refined" training methods and focused on low volume, high intensity. Only recently have we gotten back to the training methods of yesteryear (ala Lydiard) and, lo and behold, they are working. Lastly, minimalism is making a huge comeback if you haven't noticed, because it is becoming readily apparent that the $120 "vastly improved" running shoes of today are doing more harm than good. I remember reading an article on this about plantar distortion and how it is masked by the new shoes.

But I think you are just a troll who simply wants the argument, but doesn't really believe what he is saying or doesn't really care anyway, especially with your stupid, sophomoric gestures to the rock. Oh, and one more thing, care to explain why it is that guys like Abdi and Meb, who basically grew up in the US on the US lifestyle, are heads and shoulders above their peers over here? I mean, no white boy can run 27:13, despite the "better" training methods, "better" shoes, and "faster" surfaces, and here it is some 25 years after Nenow's 27:20. Also care to explain why it is that you likely possess an IQ of around 100 and could never make it as an applied mathematics major in college, but for some, it comes as easily as your mastering of 3rd grade English?

i think both arguments are correct. i think povery and lifestyle plays a huge roll in athletic success. However, I also think you need the \"right genes\" as well. I agree with the arguments of The Rock for the most part, I\'d have to say, because I think using genetics is a cop out. If it is all about genes, why even try unless you are a skinny African? Quit whining, worry about yourself and become as good as you can. If you constantly bitch about people being better than you and making excuses for why that is the case, then you are just wasting your energy and don\'t deserve to amount to anything. Also, no, your kid doesn\'t \"run\" 3-5 miles a day. While I agree with Sagarine to a certain extent, he is a complete dumbass.

I must have a different kid than everyone else then, because she spent two hours at the park yesterday morning, pretty much ignoring the swings and slides and just walking/running the perimeter the entire time. We walked/ran to the library as well. Same thing in the afternoon, only it was more like an hour. I did the same thing as a child from what I am told. Probably laid the base for a 29:36 10k later in life.

And I would agree that relegating yourself to an inferior position because of genetics is a cop out of sorts, but you also need to be realistic. I knew a guy in high school who ran 10 miles every day and a 20 miler on the weekend. NOBODY ran that much, nobody. And he still couldn't break 17:00 for 5k. I felt really bad for him. Call me out if you'd like, but it is you who are the dumbass if you aren't pragmatic.

I surrender ...

I stick by my earlier posts and the link I posted earlier.

I didn't mean to be discouraging anyone and if I did I appologize.

Runners, regardless of their genetics, should continue to train hard and enjoy the beautiful sport that running is. Good Luck!

i don't think anyone is trying to say just anybody can be great at a sport. you need to have the genetic ability in whatever sport you are trying to succeed in. That is a given. However, I think dismissing African success as, "Oh, they are African. They are just naturals," and to pretend like they don't work hard is moronic. Do Africans have a genetic advantage? Probably, but I think if Americans had less sports to choose from and their lifestyles were more conducive to elite running, we'd see many Americans running world class times as well. Again, as others have said, "The Rock's" comments are, for the most part, very viable. He is far from "retarded". I think money plays THE BIGGEST role in determining who succeeds in sports. Typically, those who grow up with a somewhat comfortable lifestyle will either seek more conventional means to make money or won't have the drive as someone who grew up with less. However, if the runner has zero natural ability, then he isn't going to become a great runner no matter how much he trains. It is a two fold process. Also, your 21 month year old is NOT RUNNING 3-5 miles a day. Is the kid maybe covering that much mileage over the course of the day? Perhaps, but it isn't RUNNING. Don't get defensive with others when you are the one that phrased the comment about your kid in a laughable manner.

STONE COLD wrote:

Also, your 21 month year old is NOT RUNNING 3-5 miles a day. Is the kid maybe covering that much mileage over the course of the day? Perhaps, but it isn't RUNNING. Don't get defensive with others when you are the one that phrased the comment about your kid in a laughable manner.

Ok, I don't know why everyone is suddenly fixated on this topic, as if though the thread were exclusively about this. Let's just say that I made that comment for effect only... you should be able to get my drift. Just like you should be able to understand that a boatload of youngsters play soccer and DO end up running a 10k a day, especially when you count recess at school and street hockey, etc. after school. It's not like they are not getting any aerobic conditioning. Here's the thing though. I only partially gave that example for effect. My 21-month old DOES spend most of her waking moments running, when she is not in her booster chair or in the car, that is. She EASILY runs 3 or 4 hours a day. That is a shitload of running. I probably underestimated it actually. You're right, I probably did misrepresent it. It's probably more like 6 miles a day.

If you're the parent that keeps their kid in front of the tv and feeds them cheetos though, as I bet you are, then shame on you. It's completely unnatural not to run at that age.

for being such a good parent, you seem to be spending an extraordinarily amount of time on the internet. is your kid out running a 20k road race right now or something? jack ass.