Good High School GIRLS...whats you're summer mileage?

xc girl, you really need to talk to your coach about what you did. Not to confess to anything, but to shed some light on what worked. Show him/her what you did - in detail - and try to work out a schedule that will allow you to achieve your best results within the framework of the team. You dont really want to be off training by yourself all the time - there are a lot of team problems that could arise from that. Maybe the coach might wake up, and start training the rest of the team more properly, too.

If your coach just gets pissed off about it, tries to kick you off the team or punish you in some way, your parents need to step in. If your coach is still not listening, go to the AD. If that doesn't work...well I dont know...transfer?

xc girl,

I do not have them do speed work until April, with State in Colorado being the 2nd weekend of May. They do anaerobic work starting in late February when track starts here in Colorado. Anaerobic work to get used to racing is one thing, speed is just that. Sprint drills, and flat out sprints. Their weekly mileage is dropping in April, with the focus being on running thier best times in the last 2-3 weeks of track. During cross country, I do not have them run speed, they do anaerobic work at current pace (based on the last race) or goal pace (state or regional goal time), usually 3 miles of "work".

Most of the year we do aerobic runs. Sometimes with strides. It is not the ability to run fast that is important to distance runners, it is the ability to stay in contention and then make use of what speed you have that is important. Lots of runners can run a sub 30 200, but few can do that after running a strong 3 miles. What Motram did last night in Ostrava, running with the leaders and then throwing in a sub 55 last 400 is a good example of what I am talking about. That is the product of being able to run strong from a very well developed aerobic capacity, then making use of your speed when it comes time to compete for the finish line.

Glenn

Yikes,

drop me an email. I'd rather not continue this discussion with you in this forum.

Glenn

Thanks so much Glenn you've told me what i've needed to hear for the past 2 years

5 of 6 state meets have left me in tears in my high school career so far, and i've finally figured out why

my amazing mid season performances have been a result of the preseason base training that i've done between seasons and during the summer. Then, the workouts have worn me down throughout the season so that ive had nothing left for the state meet and beyond, where it counts. im not gonna let this happen again this year

xc girl,

you had it right, base is the first ingredient to success. Arthur Lydiard said "anaerobic work is like eyewash". It does not matter what you do as long as you get the results. Sounds to me like you have not been getting the results. I do not necessarily expect the runners I work with to run thier fastest at state, as that is a meet about place. But I do expect them to be able to run their best, because that is what it takes to win.

We some times loose track of the fact that we want to run fast, but more importantly, we want to place well.

Glenn

Glenn,

You have high school girls running 60-75 miles / week at altitude, I have to ask you, where do they go from here? I willing to go out on a limb and say you would be hard pressed to find an elite college female running that much mileage and you have 18-19 min 5k high school girls training that much. I predict burn out, quit or injured in the future. Way too much training volume for these girls. Please take them down a notch for their own good and their future.

runner39,

I guess we will see. If the miles are run easily, there is no issue of burnout. I think you underestimate what elite college woman are running. Only one of the runners worked up to that level. She was running the same amount of time as a 15 year old, just covering a lot less mileage. She progressed as her body developed. Neither of these young ladies exhibits any signs of burnout.

I did the same thing with Venezuelan runners in 1973. They went on to set National Records, albeit they were weak records. This is straight out of the Lydiard program. Nothing unusual.

Glenn

Glenn,

Tried to send off an email, not able to at this time. Will try from a different computer tomorrow.

I like Glenn's approach and wish we'd see more of it in the U.S. All too often we see high school programs where the kids are doing little base work (mayb 20-30 mpw), and then they transition into a season where they might increase mileage for a few weeks, then it's 30 miles per week, including two or three interval sessions and a race every week. By the end of the season many are injured or stale, and what do you know, they don't run much in the off season.

Something like 60-75 miles per week isn't huge; it would add up to about 8 or 9, maybe 10, hours a week for most.

The value of the higher mileage is that it builds that cardio-vascular development, and by nature, over several years (e.g., college and beyond) they will be that much stronger.

Seeing how this is letsrun, we probably won't see many or any college coaches chime in, but I'd love to hear more.

guys, glenn knows what he's talking about, i've been working with him since the winter and i saw some nice improvement during track. The long runs definitely helped, and like he said, i could do them at the pace i wanted so they didnt leave me tired for days on end. The mileage is key. Just telling it from the perspective of one of the athletes.

Glenn, you have made some great points. I'd just like to ask you about long runs. You said you thought it was very important to get long runs into the 2 hour range for a high schooler. Even if one is doing high miles already, you think that can make a big difference?

newyork1,

absolutely. There are documented benefits that are achieved by going past certain time points. I am looking for articles/books that I can refer you to that further explains/documents this. I recall that there was a book out in the mid-late 70's that documented there was a VERY LARGE upswing in return for running more than 1 hour and 45 minutes, the return kept growing until you got to 2 hours, then it went almost to a flat return growth. So even if you are running 90 minutes a day, shifting to one day of 120 minutes will increase the returns. I hope that helps.

As I said earlier, David Martin, Peter Snell and Nobby all mentioned that as you pass 90-100 minutes the body starts to recruit fast twitch muscle fibers and some start behaving like slow twitch muscles and gaining endurance and strength.

Glenn

so even running those runs very slow would produce the same benefits? Would it be wise to take them easy or try to pick up the pace?

One more question? Was this type of running for established older runners, or for younger runners?

I have read about and considered prescribing exactly what Glenn suggests for some girls, but after doing some soul searching, decided against it. I didn't have the guts to tell girls to run that much in high school. They're not Peter Snells and this is only high school.

I think runners (and coaches) should operate on the premise that what they're doing feels sustainable for the long-term. What that is varies on an individual level, but there's little that bugs me more than girls who go through high school training like the pros, grabbing all of the medals they can, and then falling off the face of the earth before they get to college.

I help coach at a girls' program in Southern California...our top 6 returnees look like this:

2:16/4:58/11:30/18:44

2:24/5:13/11:10/18:37

5:21/11:28/18:47

2:19/20:00

2:25/5:22/11:52/20:27

2:31/5:30/11:56/20:31

Typically, these girls will average between 30-40 miles a week over the summer and throughout the season, maybe with a high week of 45 (maybe, MAYBE one will put in a 50 mile week) and a long run of 80-85 minutes (~11 miles). Due to our "relative" low volume however, none of our runs are "slow". Because of the terrain (the high school is at the top of a mesa), we get hills all the time so we don't need to do too much in the way of structured hill work. Can't tell you what the girls' individual goals are for XC as I have not discussed those with them, but I do know they want to win State this year as a team. If you want more detailed info, e-mail me and I'd be happy to help you.

Okay so there are a number of you to respond to:

Yikes: this was for anyone. Not just older runners. Noakes booke indicates that aerobic capacity is something that anyone, old or young can develop and improve by running the least amount of miles for the distances you want to run. He, of course, comes from the ultra-marathon perspective. Arthur would say, training for a marathon gives you the endurance to train well for ANYTHING else. Snell, though a 800-1500 Olympic medalist ran marathons. he was with the leaders through 22 miles, and ran into problems. Sat down and drank liquids, several minutes later was cajoled into finishing and ran 2:40 ish, 3 weeks later he ran a 1:50 (mind you the WR was 1:45 at the time). So younger folks do BETTER on aerobic work.

SoCalSchube: I do not coach at a HS. I have the benefit of having only runners who want to succeed who ask me to assist them with their running. Allison who was 4th in state this past CC season, 5th at 1600 and 3rd at 3200, had a 800 PR of 2:27, she is not a speedster. However, she ran 18:17, 11:03 and 5:07 here at altitude (she was 13th at Footlocker MW in 18:13). Her 400 PR (in a relay) was 67. So we are not talking about runners like you have. Should they have the endurance, they would be even better at 5 km. Allison's ran with the boy's team to get "pushed". She also ran 38:30 at Bolder Boulder, as a "fun" outing. I do emphasize fun with running. Janna, could be running sub 11:40 at altitude, but she worked 24 hours a week, ran NOT 1 STEP between state cross and Feb 15.

Its optional: Snell was a 2 minute 800 runner out of HS. So when you say that your runners were not a Snell, I take exception. Lydiard correctly said "there are Olympic champions in every neighborhood. They just need to be trained". Your kids are no different. Get them out running, having fun, developing. You may be hindering a potential Olympic medalist by thinking they are not a Peter Snell. Peter would tell you, he would not have been an Olympian, let alone champion if Arthur had not encouraged him to train.

Newyork1:

First, I graduated from Jamaica HS in NY, so good on ya. Speed is not important. First you have to be able cover the time. As your endurance improves, you WILL run the distance faster. It is incumbent on us to do that. SO first, cover the time, then each time you run that time you will have improved and the speed will develop with it. Speed of the run does not matter. The first time Snell ran over the hilly 22 mile route that Arthur used, he came in well over 2:30 and cried. He eventually ran the route under 2:10.

hope those help. I am still asking my compatriots to find the articles about recruiting fast twitch fibers after running over 1:45. When then get the references to me, they will be posted here.

Good running,

Glenn

I am now out of college, but I ran on a state championship HS team. Usually our #1 girl was mid 18s 5k and our #5 was 19:20s. The most we did was 40 miles a week, and were usually around 35 once we started racing. In the summer we did tempos and fartleks, then progressed to hill repeats and faster intervals while still doing some tempos. Worked out twice a week, I believe, with a limited racing schedule compared to most high schools. I think my long runs topped out at 70 minutes. I was usually our #6, with a 19:39 PR and upon going to college and getting as high as 70 miles a week I eventually ran 22:30 (6k-xc) and 18:07 5k (track).

CHEA wrote:

Glenn McCarthy wrote:

the benefit of going more than 90 minutes is that the return for the time increases and the return for each minute is much greater over 105 minutes. It plateaus out at about 2 hours. It is in that time range (105 to 120 minutes) that fast-twitch fibers begin getting recruited. This enhances the runners speed while running at more comfortable paces.

i have never heard this before.. any articles on this?

I checked with some of the other Lydiard Foundation supporters. Rich Engelhart interviewed Peter Snell for Marathon and Beyond in the May/June 2004 issue. Peter mentions this concept (fast-twitch fibers being recruited to support running and starting to take on slow-twitch fiber characteristics) in this article.

Good running,

Glenn