McDougal runs 3:57 Mile at Liberty Home Meet

Jesus would much rather associate himself with prostitutes and drunks than runners. Has Jesus ever even been to a track meet? I don't think so.

Joggernot wrote:

A big part of my speculation comes from Hall himself: he described how discouraged he was when he lost the lead at 15K Nationals. He seemed to lose his focus and desire when things weren't panning out according to plan.

I also seem to remember an incident a little while back where he kind of came to blows (or almost) when running in a pack situation. Both he and McD seem to get "claustrophobic" pretty easily.

Maybe H.S. coaches of Arcadia type distance runners, should have them race off-distances in some of their meets. Races that'll require them to battle, instead of easy 'by yourself' wins. Rupp, Hall and Webb (though he's not bad in a pack at all) have had non-fitness related growing pains battling in a race. To some extent, they can only try to run others into the ground, just like before college. Really, they're missing the most important mental element in a race.

Being able to "time trial" and not running well in big races is a classic sign of improper pacing. Some runners feel the need to stay in the front pack even if that pack is running much too fast. Getting sucked into too fast a pace will always result in a poor race. When there is no competition, the runner will run at the best pace he is capable of. McDougal (and Ryan Hall) need to learn to forget about other runners in the big races and run their own pace. If they do that, they will beat all the runners who started too fast and also run a great time.

ttc wrote:

We've all had competitors that, if we're around them towards the end (and not necessarily just the final kick), we KNOW we'll finish ahead. Whether making a later-race move or the final kick...whatever. Hall seems like that kind of runner, at the elite level, to come out at the shorter end of the closely battled stick..

You're a f***ing idiot ttc. Ryan Hall's competitive record is outstanding. Your competitive record is crap.

Ryan Hall

AR 20k 2006, AR HM 2007

2007 National HM champion 59:43

2006 National XC Champion

2005 USATF 5000 3rd 13:16

2005 NCAA Chmapion 5000 13:22 (2nd best in meet history)

2003 NCAA XC 2nd

Really? I didn't know there were too many others like me on letsrun. Give me an email if you want. Happy Pesach

Quote of the day by ttc wrote:

ttc wrote:

We've all had competitors that, IF WE'RE AROUND THEM TOWARDS THE END (and not necessarily just the final kick), we KNOW we'll finish ahead. Whether making a later-race move or the final kick...whatever. Hall seems like that kind of runner, at the elite level, to come out at the shorter end of the closely battled stick..

You're a f***ing idiot ttc. Ryan Hall's competitive record is outstanding. Your competitive record is crap.

Ryan Hall

AR 20k 2006, AR HM 2007

2007 National HM champion 59:43

2006 National XC Champion

2005 USATF 5000 3rd 13:16

2005 NCAA Chmapion 5000 13:22 (2nd best in meet history)

2003 NCAA XC 2nd

Reread my bolded, underlined quote above. In the races you mention, Hall paced over his "victims" and had to be way ahead. Anyone close was able to beat him, with the exception of Dobson at NCAA's. I actually wish more runners would boldly take the lead and go for it. But he doesn't show an elite 5th gear in a close race and that's his weakness. It's not bashing, but just saying.

ttc wrote:

Reread my bolded, underlined quote above. In the races you mention, Hall paced over his "victims" and had to be way ahead. Anyone close was able to beat him, with the exception of Dobson at NCAA's. I actually wish more runners would boldly take the lead and go for it. But he doesn't show an elite 5th gear in a close race and that's his weakness. It's not bashing, but just saying.

Oh,you mean like the USATF 5k and the NCAA 5k? I also believe that in the USA XC trials, he hung in the mid-pack for the first half of the race, then simply pulled farther and farther away (ie, not in the lead from the gun at all). I also don't think the recent 15k against Meb lends well to your example, given how he was trying to smash the AR from the gun and that had been his goal far beyond beating MEB (who he obviously underestimating in that scenario, just as he underestimated the physical anguish of running that pace). As for Joggernaut, did you forget about Webb winning the Cardinal 10k? You guys all have these select few examples that don't add up to enough to solidify your statements. Mcdougal was undeafeated except for Nats as a FRESHMAN and he has since had plenty of XC races that have come down to kicks. Wait until his outdoor season (the season that matters much more to collegiate athletes) is over before you start making huge assumptions. He's only a true junior...there's many years to go to work out the kinks.

We should lay off Hall till we see London pan out. That will be his test with 'the true fray'. And, people have to be humbled from time to time . If McD were smashing records, winning everything...dude he'd also be sitting in the Lucifer seat. That ain't no place to be.

Chris Hall wrote:

Oh,you mean like the USATF 5k and the NCAA 5k? I also believe that in the USA XC trials, he hung in the mid-pack for the first half of the race, then simply pulled farther and farther away (ie, not in the lead from the gun at all). I also don't think the recent 15k against Meb lends well to your example, given how he was trying to smash the AR from the gun and that had been his goal far beyond beating MEB (who he obviously underestimating in that scenario, just as he underestimated the physical anguish of running that pace).

I don't know what you're argument is. Except for the NCAA 5K over Dobson (which I stated earlier as an exception), Hall's always used a fast pace to beat the opposition. But if he runs into racers who can pace with him, then he loses to them. When has he ever used foot speed to finish a race faster than those around him in a race that was 'up in the air' going into the final stages?

ttc wrote:

I don't know what you're argument is. Except for the NCAA 5K over Dobson (which I stated earlier as an exception), Hall's always used a fast pace to beat the opposition. But if he runs into racers who can pace with him, then he loses to them. When has he ever used foot speed to finish a race faster than those around him in a race that was 'up in the air' going into the final stages?

......and the penalty for "only" being able to outpace your opponents is????? what?

ttc wrote:

When has he ever used foot speed to finish a race faster than those around him in a race that was 'up in the air' going into the final stages?

How does "using foot speed to finish a race) even remotely relevant. No one said that, wehn being "thrown into the mix," you have to win with a kick. I guess Bekele's inferior when "thrown into the mix" by that rhetoric.

u is a loser

The Dude Abides wrote:

......and the penalty for "only" being able to outpace your opponents is????? what?

Hall wins by outpacing his opponents. If it comes down to the final stages that rely on a top gear or kick, he almost always loses to those around him.

three fifty seven wrote:

Jordan McDougal helped with the "rabbitting" duties early on.

What an ANIMAL!

ttc wrote:

The Dude Abides wrote:

......and the penalty for "only" being able to outpace your opponents is????? what?

Hall wins by outpacing his opponents. If it comes down to the final stages that rely on a top gear or kick, he almost always loses to those around him.

Did your father cut your skull open and rape you in the brain as a child?

Only on LetsRun does someone get bashed for not needing to rely on a kick to beat a lot of damn good runners!

Wow, ttc, you have established a new level of moron.

Dan Onymous wrote:

Did your father cut your skull open and rape you in the brain as a child?

Only on LetsRun does someone get bashed for not needing to rely on a kick to beat a lot of damn good runners!

Wow, ttc, you have established a new level of moron.

Only one letsrun does the childish hyperbole run so high. Calm down.

His point was that Hall is good in the evenly paced races and not so good at responding to changes in pace, surges, kicks, etc. That is an observation. Perhaps it is a valid one, perhaps not but regardless, take a f***ing tension pill and chill out. The world is not coming to an end because ttc thinks that Hall can't kick.

ttc wrote:

The Dude Abides wrote:

......and the penalty for "only" being able to outpace your opponents is????? what?

Hall wins by outpacing his opponents. If it comes down to the final stages that rely on a top gear or kick, he almost always loses to those around him.

So you mean his best way of winning a race is to run harder from furtherout than his competitors want to? Great, sounds like a plan to me, you use your strengths to your advantage in a racing situation.

Quit being so obtuse, guys. ttc made an observation about Ryan Hall's races that seems to be right on. I don't think he was trying to make any profound recommendations or bash Ryan.

The fact is, Ryan's big wins have for the most part been when he pulls away sometime before it comes down to a final kick. In order for him to compete at a world class level, he'll have to figure out how to vanquish those he can't drop mid-race and that means working on tactical racing and developing a strong kick.

Ah but the problem is he will never be able to win a big one with that strategy. As good as his fitness is, if he is up against the elite East Africans, he will not be able to break them with pace, and will inevitably falter over the last lap.

He is not a great racer - if he were, he would beat better/faster runners in championship/tactical situations. As is, his best shot at World or Olympic gold is probably on the roads, where he has a better chance of being able to run away from the field.