Selling a Boston Bib?

I haven't seen the timer's viewpoint on this thread (or, in my case, an ex-timer).

If nobody finds out, then the only risk during the race would have been that the person is injured and the timer is unable to identify the runner from the bib number. There's a low probability of this, but if you think it's near zero, think again. It's not all that rare.

Newspaper photos, video, Brightroom (and others like it) -- perhaps wrong gender, wrong age...again, if you think that timers don't get questions about this -- sometimes even angry questions -- think again.

And then the question of wrong results. It's true, as one poster wrote, that you don't expect to see the entire field listed in a newspaper (though over the years I've had races, big ones, where this is always done...Utica Boilermaker, for example).

But expand the concept of "listing" a bit. Go beyond newspapers. I've put out internet lists that were quickly snapped up and posted by different sites. Then I've had to make changes...and within even a few hours, or a couple of days, you have a situation where different results are posted all over the web and the running community doesn't necessarily know which ones are accurate.

Several posters correctly pointed out that bib selling (or giving) isn't likely to affect the money, or the top finishers. True! But there'd be no work for timers if the people down in the pack didn't care very much about in-gender and in-age group placings. Move somebody out of a group and everything below that person changes...move somebody into a group, the same. Then the phone calls and emails start. How come I was fourth in my group, and now I'm fifth? Runners care about those stats.

Over the years I've seen the most trouble caused by idiot guys -- say in their 30s -- who grab numbers from their older women friends. Then of course the woman wins her age group, often by many minutes. If it's somebody nobody knows, then the awards ceremony comes to a halt while everybody waits for the "winner." Usually nobody fesses up because of the shame or it. If they do, then it's rescore, reprint, and try to find the person who finished out of the awards before she goes home. And if she's already gone, well, she missed her chance to be up on the podium getting clapped for...if you think this is cool, you go talk to a person like that. Shoot, I've had this happen with First Woman, even, when the alleged winner was a plausible winner, but her faster male friend had used her number.

This kind of crap causes trouble all around -- way more than you might think.

I'm not defending expensive races who won't give you an injury pass for the next year. They should. And I'm not whining -- we timers get paid for what we do, and we're supposed to be able to handle all this stuff.

What I'm saying is that most runners don't understand the consequences of bib swapping. There's a huge ripple effect from that one little thing you think is nothing, really.

Finally I'll say that apart from the big races where you can't get anywhere near the timer or a person authorized to make a change, if you're going to use somebody else's number GO TO THE TIMER AND GET YOURSELF REGISTERED FOR THAT BIB. I swear I've never known a timer who wouldn't do that for you gladly, and probably even thank you. The timer knows how much potential trouble you've just saved everybody.

midwesta wrote:

So how about you read the original post so you don't sound like an idiot?

So how about you, and the idiot that started this thread read the rules (You know, the part where it says it's non transferable) when you register for the race so you don't sound like idiots.

Or does reading comprehension only apply when it suits your needs?

You too wrote:

So how about you, and the idiot that started this thread read the rules (You know, the part where it says it's non transferable) when you register for the race so you don't sound like idiots.

Or does reading comprehension only apply when it suits your needs?

I got the impression the original poster is aware there is a no transfer policy. That is NOT the question or his point. Even with the policy he wants to avoid the $95 loss since he cannot run the race. He wants to sell what he paid for.

There is no "reading comprehension" issue here (except maybe yours). He rejects the rule, as do many.

Ohhhhhh. You reject the rule.

Tell me what criteria do you use for rejecting rules? I'd like to reject the rules of the IRS, can you give me some pointers?

?????? wrote:

Ohhhhhh. You reject the rule.

Tell me what criteria do you use for rejecting rules? I'd like to reject the rules of the IRS, can you give me some pointers?

DO NOT reject IRS rules. Trust me on this one.

Joseph McVeigh wrote:

Most important "count" why it's wrong to use someone else's entry -- the runner on the street would not have been the person who signed the legal waiver. So there's no contract whatsoever, and liability protection for each is murky or nonexistent. What if the "bib buyer," who isn't even supposed to be there in the first place, messes up someone else? What if some fatass with a PayPal account instead of a BQ got a first-corral number, sprinted the first 200 yards, slowed to near-walk immediately, and took you down before you coudl see and avoid him?

Oh, I forgot...this is letsrun.com, where rules don't apply to anyone if they don't ensure you get exactly what

you want exactly when you want it.

Joe, thanks for the more legal input that we sometimes overlook. Yes, there definitely is an agreement entered in to with the BAA, and it has every RIGHT to protect its interest. (Your illustration of a "fatass" with a PayPal account getting in the front corral with the Kenyans, etc. is hysterical!) For those who do not see a need for controlling Boston entries: visualize yourself sending 10,000-20,000 runners out on the streets of Boston ,on a warm day, with no clue as to who really is in your race!! Running is basically a regulation-less sport; that's why so many of us love it. I am no fan of burdensome rules, but a mega-event like Boston (or NYC, Chicago, TC's) needs some pretty tough policing. It's not unreasonable to require that you know who your entrants really are!!

TO--:Do you have any stats on how people with "purchased" entries really place in relation to the intended, legal entrant? Or are you "shooting from the hip" when you claim that they more often run slower than the legal runner?? (It would be a pretty tough stat to obtain.) Also, while a 3:10 runner could certainly get a number LEGALLY in own name, often-times, procrastination enters in and he/she misses the entry deadline. The urge to run Boston suddenly enters in, and the possibility of obtaining another's number is attractive. I know it can, and has, happened; Boston does strange things to normally rational people, I guess!!

If selling your race bib to some random person is deemed acceptable by race organizers what will stop people and their 50 best friends from entering races and selling the bibs for profit when the race is full? This could lead to bib brokering similiar to what happens to popular concert tickets, albeit on a much smaller scale.

At Boston you need to qualify so selling or giving your number to someone effectivley bypasses the qualifing process.

Comprendo wrote:

[quote]:

He rejects the rule, as do many.

Thanks for the morning laugh! Letsrun at its finest.

I qualified in 2003 w/ a sub 2:50 time but was injured in the race. There was no way I was going to run Boston but I registered just so I could sell my number. I sold it for 600 bucks, got my official time listed for posterity around 5:30, received photo proofs from Brightroom with some fatass and guess what...I'd do it again if I had the opportunity.

All the self righteous sanctimonious assholes that cheat on their wives, drink and drive, beat their dog, fudge on their taxes choose this offense that crosses the line (I do all of these except I'm not married). I honestly threw up in my mouth when I read some of these posts....comparing this to Roise Ruiz??? Give me a frackin break. Steve Hoag, you need to lighten up, I know your type and we aren't friends...your friends don't even like you. Now excuse me while I tear the tags off my mattresses....idiots, idiots, idiots!

[/quote]

Thanks for the morning laugh! Letsrun at its finest.[/quote]

So, if your local sports franchise established a "rule" saying you couldn't sell your tickets to someone else if you could not attend the game, would you just throw them out, or would you try to get some of your money back???

And just because there aren't any races out there who don't offer refunds to those who cannot race, doesn't make it right to keep the money and make the runner pay again the following year.

midwesta, i use exclamation points to emphasize ideas, opinions, etc to people, like yourself, who may not always comprehend things easily!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(just a carry-over from Freshman English,1965) I finally connect with you on something: I WISH I WAS 15 YEARS OLD AGAIN, or 25,or 45....at least for a day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Regarding the Minneapolis StarTribune: it is no better nor worse than any other mid-size newspaper. How many people read the sports results? Wish I knew, but I'm sure the advertisers hope it's more than the handful you "claim". It's beside the point, anyway. Does it really matter if 3, 300, 3000, 30,000 read a given page? What DOES matter is: if you have no problem (or conscience)taking credit for an athletic accomplishment that you did not deserve, regardless if, say, 112 people saw it!! It's called ethics, honesty, etc!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

bumrunner wrote:

If selling your race bib to some random person is deemed acceptable by race organizers what will stop people and their 50 best friends from entering races and selling the bibs for profit when the race is full? This could lead to bib brokering similiar to what happens to popular concert tickets, albeit on a much smaller scale.

Putting asdie the qualifying issue, I don't see a problem here. What is wrong with making a profit?

cereal(as in flake?): people warned me a few weeks ago, when i started participating in this forum: there will be total idiots, losers, wannabe's, etc out there. Don't count on getting meaningful dialog with alot of these types. YOU, flake, take the all-time prize in all of the aforementioned categories, hands,f-----g down. Since you most-likely have never won anything in your miserable "life", please give me your name, and I will have a trophy made up for you! I know that wallowing in anonymity is more your style, I can have it engraved: "Anonymous Ass----". You and I aren't friends?! Thank God. My friends are all reasonably intelligent and articulate; that would definitely rule you out! We do agree on one thing: mattress tags should be torn off.

Mainly because if I were a race director I would not some random profiteer making money off my production and not giving me a cut!

bumrunner wrote:

Mainly because if I were a race director I would not some random profiteer making money off my production and not giving me a cut!

You already got your piece of the cut. You set your price and sold it. You have no reason to be upset with someone who then sells it for more because you chose to under price the product.

Further they not some "random profiteer" they are the people who biught your product.

"bought"

How did he "choose" to under price the product?

These people complaining are the whiners who did qualify...Guess where there are THRONGS of those who run Boston and have NEVER QUALIFIED......Just goto the website, find one of the many charities who they sponsor, contact them for a comp'd entry and raise money. Do you actually think that Curt Schillings Gallow-walking penguin shaped wife has ever qualified....Not in this lifetime...Yet she's in there EVERY YEAR with thousands of other Marathon walking entrants. As for the guy in Minnesota....Must been a slow news day in the land of a 1000 lakes if that's all they're running on the 5pm news....whoopidy f'n doooo.....I'm with the mattress tag ripping agent above.....You all sound like a bunch of pre-pubescent girls whining over your friends first period....

KidS: It more like 12,000 lakes, and was referring to a newspaper, not a television ( 5pm news?) Good points, though,....the guy in Minnesota

KidStallyn wrote:

These people complaining are the whiners who did qualify...Guess where there are THRONGS of those who run Boston and have NEVER QUALIFIED......Just goto the website, find one of the many charities who they sponsor, contact them for a comp'd entry and raise money. Do you actually think that Curt Schillings Gallow-walking penguin shaped wife has ever qualified....Not in this lifetime...Yet she's in there EVERY YEAR with thousands of other Marathon walking entrants. As for the guy in Minnesota....Must been a slow news day in the land of a 1000 lakes if that's all they're running on the 5pm news....whoopidy f'n doooo.....I'm with the mattress tag ripping agent above.....You all sound like a bunch of pre-pubescent girls whining over your friends first period....

What economists did you know?

Anyway, i was being sarcastic. The point is the non-transferable cause makes it illegal to sell the bib and the original poster's actions wrong.

The non-refundable policy creates the black market for the bib (in this posters case) obviously their are the 'fatties' who can't qualify who participate in the black market also. In addition they charge you more if you don't use the bib, creating more incentive to sell it and for a markup (original price + fine).

To me it appears that the BAA could do more to prevent situations like the op's from happening if they weren't so restrained by money and had a more open policy to refunds. Can someone explain what purpose that policy serves besides increasing the club's finances? I don't think refunds would directly detract from the race, only indirectly through a waterfall effect of less funding.

Note: I am not calling the BAA money grubbers (at least not according to my knowledge)