Paavo Distance Training

Runningart2004 wrote:

A coach's primary goal is to make the most of the athlete. a coach's secondary goal is make sure they are ready for the next step. If a coach's #1 goal was to prepare the athlete for college then why race at all? Why not just put in nothing but aerobic miles for 4 years. What base!!!

Alan

Well, there are certain benefits to racing...by saying why not just put in 4 years of mileage you're just going to the extreme and being ridiculous. Your earlier posts made you at least sound somewhat knowledgeable about SOMETHING (that being paavo). I would figure you know the benefits that a few races can bring to long term development. Don't be ignorant just to try and prove a point.

Now...

I think this whole debate about whether a coach's goal should be long term development or short term success is all personal preference. You can make arguements for either side. In the end, I think it comes down to what kind of person you are and what you believe in.

Runningart2004 wrote:

Where are the books on York? Other high school coaches. How about Vin's book? Wetmore's book? That's right...not every coach has the time and money to publish a damn book. And don't quote RWTB. Wetmore didn't write that now did he?

Alan

I believe Newton has written three books. Vin and Wetmore speak freely at clinics which aren't so much in the "if you're not doing it our way, you're doing it wrong" tone that I sensed at the Paavo clinic.

Runningart2004 wrote:

Two sides to every story....

My high school progression under PAAVO:

Freshman year:

1600m: 5:35 during first XC practice, 4:52 first track race, 4:37 last track race; XC: 20:06 first race, 18:37 last race

Sophomore year:

Track: 4:27/9:55

XC: 17:35

Junior year:

Track: 4:34/9:36

XC: 16:16

Senior year:

Track: 4:27/9:32-allstate

XC: 15:53-allstate

There have been a few state champions (team and individual) who have used the system in single class Indiana. It does work....sometimes..;)

Alan

How does that even remotely prove that Paavo works?

I have come to love anti-Paavo threads as much as pro-Pose threads. They are so much fun.

Why people hate Paavo:

1) Tons of hard work. Runners World tells us to run slow and we are doing our best. If a system tells us we still have to work hard, we hate it.

2) Paavo runners, in general, beat up on most non Paavo runners in their leagues and conferences and thus much bitter resentment.

This from a guy who used to laugh at Paavo. Didn't know Spooner ran Paavo. Pretty impressive results. Question to Spooner: Did you really bang the PPMs as stated in the camps. That's the only part I can't swallow. Also, what were your 1600 Time Trials on Saturday like during base?

Drama wrote:

I have come to love anti-Paavo threads as much as pro-Pose threads. They are so much fun.

Why people hate Paavo:

1) Tons of hard work. Runners World tells us to run slow and we are doing our best. If a system tells us we still have to work hard, we hate it.

2) Paavo runners, in general, beat up on most non Paavo runners in their leagues and conferences and thus much bitter resentment.

This from a guy who used to laugh at Paavo. Didn't know Spooner ran Paavo. Pretty impressive results. Question to Spooner: Did you really bang the PPMs as stated in the camps. That's the only part I can't swallow. Also, what were your 1600 Time Trials on Saturday like during base?

1. It is better to work smart than it is to work hard. Lydiard/Daniels/Bowerman and their systems show more intellegence and adaptability than Marshall Sellers' catch phrases and slogans.

2. The school in our state that is best known for using Paavo is also known for some spectacular state meet blow-ups. That's what happens when the athlete is forced to adapt to the system than the other way around.

I was just thinking of how Hilton blew up at NTN this year.

It doesn't... paavo is make-believe:

FRES - did not run

SOPH - 4:54 / 10:52

JUNR - 4:40 / 10:10

SENR - 4:28 / 9:35 (2002)

Currently - 4:05 / 8:54 (2006)

All WITHOUT paavo

2. The school in our state that is best known for using Paavo is also known for some spectacular state meet blow-ups. That's what happens when the athlete is forced to adapt to the system than the other way around.

What school would this be Mr. Usher? Just curious.

I ran the Paavo program in high school and since I've graduated I've gone on to work the Paavo Camps as a Coach. The Paavo program is the only program I've spent a significant amount of time with so I know I'm biased.

I always see these threads and feel like I need to say something even though I know most people are already decided on the issue.

First of all, yes the Paavo program is laid out day by day but if you have a coach that doesn't know that he needs to listen and adapt the program to his indivduals than you have a bigger problem than the program you are using. The biggest thing I notice about successful coaches/programs/athletes is their ability to adapt the workout to the situation depending on all kinds of factors. Nothing is set in stone.

Second, yes the PAAVO brand is a business. You have to pay for a seminar or a camp. Just like you have to pay for a Lydiard or Daniels book. Right now Running the Lydiard Way is just as expensive a two day clinic with one on one interaction. It's not a secret. Coach Sellers isn't out trying to hunt down and remove all posts that explain the system. It feels like a secret because you're paying for much more than the nuts and bolts of the program.

This leads me to my last point. What makes Paavo so special to me and all the others in the Paavo "cult" is the lessons and principles that focus on the real world after high school. It's so funny to hear people say Paavo is only good for high school and ruins kids for later when the whole philosphy is about working hard, having a positive attitude and doing the things that will make you successful in life after high school. I am bluring the line a little between running and other things, I know.

Paavo camps give you the chance to do runs that'd you'd never do at a camp on a college campus. Spooner was right when he said people there are serious about running and being a better runner and locations help develop that attitude.

To the original post in this link, you can't base your entire opion of the applicant on Paavo experience in his resume. Do you think he is going to be able to adapt? Did you ask him if he has plans other than just copying the Paavo workouts every week and expecting the kids to just do it. If he really is a Paavo coach he will have a very positive attitude and that is good for any program.

Just know that if he is a Paavo coach he will run the kids on a lydiard based program. He will try to get them to go to the camps, which is an awesome experience and I think runners of any age would really enjoy. If he's a smart Paavo coach he'll adapt the program and give kids a desire to work hard, have a postive attitude and learn how to set goals in running and in life.

This is long and not proofread so please flame on.......now

Fr: 19:35 5k

So: 16:41 5k

Jr: 16:30 5k

Sr: 15:50 5k

I think PAAVO is a great program to improve high school runners who may not have an abundance of talent, (me: 6:00 mile PR in middle school) but are willing to increase their mileage and run hard at least 2 or three times each week. I definitely know that without the program I wouldn\'t have individually made it to the Indiana State XC meet my senior year.

I needed a very structured program, but I realize that everyone is different.

By the way, I have been to 14 or 15 Paavo camps (as a runner, volunteer, coach) and always come back home motivated and in much better shape.

look at any paavo runner in college now. name one successful one!? they run great in hs but can't adapt to the training in college, I'm a testimonial of this.

if a kid wants to run in college, the coaches get em fast and ship em off just to see em fail... time and time again it happens and its happened again. the #1 paavo runner last year is injured at william and mary.

Ok first off I am really tired of hearing about these camps and how great they are. I went to 4 different running camps in high school and I had a great time at all of them, ran at awesome places, and finally came back extremely motivated learning a ton about running and also other things as well. At one running camp adidas was actually there and we got to work with them to design trail shoes and work on a lot of different things and that was one of the best experiences of my life. I think it is rediculous to think that most running camps are where kids just go to hook up with girls. Yeah at some of them this is the case but with the serious runners this is not. As far as long term development I am talking about running wise not life. Also if you are going to try to show that traning hard is the best thing about Paavo then you have proven that you are an idiot. There is not one program in the world that does not promote working hard. I don't think there are any world class runners that would say oh don't worry about training hard just sit on the couch and you will run sub 14.

Brooke Upshaw and Miranda Walker at the University of Arkansas! Both girls ran Paavo in HS with GREAT SUCCESS and both had GREAT SUCCESS this year as Frosh in college! I would say they ran great and have adapted very well.

Ivan Pinal and Armando Saldivar of UT-Arlington did well this year and they were PAAVO trained kids while in HS.

The Stewardson girls from Detroit have done well at UT with the limited talent that they have.....both were trained as PAAVO runners in HS.

Alicia Craig of Stanford has had a pretty good college career and she was Paavo Trained in HS........

Tracey Akerheim of Texas Tech did well in college and she was Paavo trained in HS

There are many kids throughout the country that do well in HS on many different programs and then do poorly in college......can't blame the PAAVO training for that!

There are several college kids running right now that will flat out tell you they could run better in college if they were on the Paavo program rather than the college program they are forced to follow......I can't wait to see how a thread like that might play out on here!

My wish for all is that you might find a program that works for you and that you might truly enjoy the sport and quit bashing what you may or may not fully understand.....Go RUN!

swoosh2 wrote:

2. The school in our state that is best known for using Paavo is also known for some spectacular state meet blow-ups. That's what happens when the athlete is forced to adapt to the system than the other way around.

What school would this be Mr. Usher? Just curious.

E-mail me:

Some things I don't want to say too much about in a public forum.

Drama wrote:

I have come to love anti-Paavo threads as much as pro-Pose threads. They are so much fun.

Why people hate Paavo:

1) Tons of hard work. Runners World tells us to run slow and we are doing our best. If a system tells us we still have to work hard, we hate it.

2) Paavo runners, in general, beat up on most non Paavo runners in their leagues and conferences and thus much bitter resentment.

This directed at me? I'll let you keep that sentiment, but remember who you said it to in 6 months.

I ran with a couple guys in college that were PAAVO trained in HS and they didn't improve much at all. It might teach you to grind out lots of slow intervals and run tempos twice a week throughout the summer, but not how to race fast in the long term.

I ran with a couple of guys in college that were trained the Lydiard/Daniels way and they never got much better than they were in HS.......might teach you how to build a nice aerobic base and do hills with strides, but not how to race fast in the long term!

Drama wrote:

I have come to love anti-Paavo threads as much as pro-Pose threads. They are so much fun.

Why people hate Paavo:

1) Tons of hard work. Runners World tells us to run slow and we are doing our best. If a system tells us we still have to work hard, we hate it.

2) Paavo runners, in general, beat up on most non Paavo runners in their leagues and conferences and thus much bitter resentment.

This from a guy who used to laugh at Paavo. Didn't know Spooner ran Paavo. Pretty impressive results. Question to Spooner: Did you really bang the PPMs as stated in the camps. That's the only part I can't swallow. Also, what were your 1600 Time Trials on Saturday like during base?

I usually ran the 4 mile PPM on Tuesday and 8 mile PPM on Thursday. I would bang them out actually, as much as it sucks to hear. However, I worked my way there. During the winter I started with the 2 mile PPM and 3 mile PPM and worked my way up to the 4 and 8 towards the end. When you’re not feeling well or are feeling especially tired, take that in to account when you start. The goal for the second PPM is to come through AROUND the same time you did for your shorter PPM on Tuesday and then keep going. The “keep going” part may start as a little faster than a jog, but after awhile you begin to be able to come through around the same time and keep going only at a little less pace per mile. Concerning the 1600 on Saturdays, I would run them on the track with my regular training shoes. The goal for me was to be able to run just a little faster each week, even if “a little faster” was only tenths of seconds. I wasn't trying to set new PR's or anything and usually jogged into it. To be honest, I miss the Paavo system I used. I became so accustomed to it as a routine of my everyday life during the off-season that my body became a recovering machine. Racing was the easy part in high school (the way it should be). It was a hard switch going to college for the first two years after having a system that worked for me for 4 + years. I haven’t had the success I’ve wanted in college, but I believe success comes from trust in your training. In high school I had an extreme trust in my coach and training, which resulted in success in my racing. In college, it was hard for me to forget all about Paavo and the trust I had with it. I’m finally gaining that trust in my training, however the constant results have not come yet…but they will.

Spooner

I know of someone who ran 4:11 & 9:07 in HS off PAAVO. They went on to become a Big 12 mile champ. I believe the same team had another sub 9:20 guy & a guy that ran 1:53 all within a 3 yr period.