What happened to Jordan McDougal this year?

...indeed a common misconception about LU - I've lived in the region for decades, walked the campus, attended events, etc., and having done undergraduate and graduate work from Univ. to Ark (Fayette.) to Rutgers (New Brunswick) and taking in my share of indoctrinating courses, I would say LU's students definitely don't all walk lock-step in accordance w/ JF's politics - yes, the spiritual link is obvious - but even there, w/ thousands living on campus, to think that they are all of "one" accord is nonsense. I might also add, that every time I've seen JM on the trails, which is occasionally, he does seem to hammer - often alone. Good or bad - I don't know - I'm not a coach; but I know a 5 and sub-5 pace when I see it, and JM maintains it effortlessly.

An interesting discussion with both sides for once.

I understand that we are evaluating Josh and Jordan McDougal's cross country careers to a further extent here than their track careers. However, I do not think that you can say that Josh has always performed excellent in all his big-time races. What about some of the 5ks at track nationals that he has run? I do not recall him doing particularly well in track. He has done exceptionally well in cross country (except for his recent race at nationals). Maybe the year gets too long for him - season after season? Training issue perhaps?

What about having to solo qualifiers for nationals in the 10k outdoors, or indoors in the 5k. Or going to IC4As and killing everyone in the 3k to try and make nationals w/o competition.

That's pretty bogus.

And McDougal had been having trouble all season. Korir took him to the line once, beat him at regionals, and then killed him at nationals. Korir is good, but McDougal is great. Now take into consideration that McDougal raced Korir THREE TIMES, raced Griak, and raced pre-nats. Sounds like 5 hard efforts to me. That's a lot in one season whichever way you slice it.

He could have got by with winning pre-nats, jogging regionals to make nats, and running nationals hard. But the guy hammered constantly. Think about it, he doesn't have the team to make nationals, so going to Griak doesn't make sense individually. A coach should recognize this and tell him to relax.

And don't get me started on his sub 29:00 10k training run. C'mon!

speedster wrote:

I understand that we are evaluating Josh and Jordan McDougal\'s cross country careers to a further extent here than their track careers. However, I do not think that you can say that Josh has always performed excellent in all his big-time races. What about some of the 5ks at track nationals that he has run? I do not recall him doing particularly well in track. He has done exceptionally well in cross country (except for his recent race at nationals). Maybe the year gets too long for him - season after season? Training issue perhaps?

I specifically said \"in xc\" every time after saying, \"he has alway performed excellent.\" I figured this debate was completely about his XC career.

One last thing.

Here's Josh's racing schedule, and which races he ran hard. I now realize there were 6 hard efforts, not five. That's a huge number for a college runner, especially someone who is "contending" for the national title.

hard

Sep 9, 2006 10:00 AM vs. Lou Onesty Invitational

Charlottesville, Va. Men-1st, Women-4th

Box Score · Recap

hard

Sep 23, 2006 12:20 PM vs. Roy Griak Invitational

St. Paul, Minn. Men-14th, Women-18th

Box Score · Recap

hard

Sep 30, 2006 9:30 AM vs. Greater Louisville Classic

Louisville, Ky. Men-3rd, Women-4th

Box Score · Recap

Oct 14, 2006 12:00 PM vs. Pre-Nationals

hard

Terre Haute, Ind. Men-19th, Women-31st

Box Score · Recap

easy

Oct 28, 2006 9:00 AM vs. Big South Conference Championships

Charleston, S.C. Men-1st, Women-1st

Box Score · Recap

hard

Nov 11, 2006 11:00 AM vs. NCAA Division I Southeast Regional Championships

Louisville, Ky. Men-7th, Women-12th

Box Score · Recap

hard

Nov 20, 2006 1:15 PM vs. NCAA Division I National Championships

Terre Haute, Ind.

It might be, but it's not like his track performances are not at all cogent. Peaking is peaking, I think.

I don't really know why you are responding to my posts with this stuff. What I was defending was that he said Josh had "consistantly performed poorly when it mattered in cross country." Aside from his loss to Korir and his run at nationals this last monday, that is absolutely 100% untrue. He also put down Liberty as being completely incompetant in thier training of Mcdougal...if that is the case, explain how he went from one of the top 4 or 5 xc runners in his high school class to being undefeated outside of the national meet for almost 3 years in a row (also qualifying for worlds and beating top end professionaly runners), and getting 13th as a true frosh in a tough, muddy year and 4th as a true soph.

I don't feel there needs to be any defense for "Nice time for girls" constant belittlement of the spiritual principles of the Liberty runners--that's just ignorance and intolerance on his part. In myopically and recklessly accusing "them" of being "close-minded" and spitefully illiberal (none of which he has any proof of, given how he does not know any of them and is simply basing his numbskulled accusations on what he PERCIEVES JF's principles to be, assuming that everyone who attends liberty is synonymous with eachother--a mindless caricature of people, manifested simply from his own, personal, undogmatic worldview...)he is in fact acquiescing with that which he claims to loathe--how can you possibly condemn an entire group of people, on the basis of how you feel about just one person?

Who is he to judge thier own, personal beliefs and principles? I'm just tired of seeing this kind of ignorance brought up every time there is a thread about the Mcdougals. Respect him and his teammates for having the character to commit to something that has a deeper significance to them than just running. It was the decision of those who run for that team to attend the university they are attending--stop harassing them and questioning them because it has affects you very little.

To sum up my defense, it was simply that--while Josh Mcdougal may have had a rough go this past monday and a sub-par race against Korir...and while Jordan Mcdougal may have experienced some disappointment at the regional qualifier, they have done enough up to this point to have earned enough respect that people can allow them a single mis-step without attacking them with criticism. Fair weather fans are the biggest bummers to hang out with listening to the condescending and skeptical views that pop up every time either of these two runners is mentioned is getting VERY OLD.

6 hard races in 70 days? I cant believe he didn't keel over and die long before he got to nats with such an amazingly brutal schedule as this!!!

While I can't vouch for whether 6 races is a necessarily good or bad thing for a season for an elite runner (as I was not of that genre, although the view from the middle of the pack was alright), it seems that the view of those who oppose racing that many times in a season would be to cut back drastically on the races. So, if that's the case and we're dicing up the schedules, why have any XC races at all outside of a Pre-Nat race in late september, a regional qualifier and the National Meet. (That felt absurd just typing it.)

It's also a very difficult subject, because people are simultaneously criticizing wisconsin for only racing hard like 1 or 2 times out of the year. So where is the happy medium? Perhaps it takes something negative to happen to make need for a reevaluation of one's schedule...I'm sure that is what both sides are doing, but until this very recent part of this season, it had never been an issue.

I do think the question for many of us and Josh...entails several of his finals races be it CC or on the track. Just wanted to mention a blup I read somewhere , most of you probably know, where Josh was speaking after his crash on the track...against Pilkington...I think. Can't recall if it was 5k ..and or if Solinsky was in it. But Josh said it was huge crash for him. He had put in the work in spades. He said he just had been feeling totally dead all season! This is last track! He also said they were trying to diagnose this and looking at like his thyroid and doing extensive blood work etc. Excuse me, I am not quoting Josh and may be off some on his interview, I think it was an audio interview..I don't recall. Anywho I was really worried about him those few months ago, and a little concerned when I seen his high milage and how he was doing it. Always liked Josh think he is true and pure athlete. He is very intelligent, I think he needs to put everything together and get this corrected. Good luck Josh....get it done!

The difference between Wisco and McDougal is Wisco crashed as a team, John crashed as an individual. Thats a very different situation.

The happy medium is teams should race more than once prior to nationals to make sure they don't pull a wisconsin. Individuals should race less than five times so they don't pull a mcdougal.

My snotty Ivy League sister is doing some research for prof. on these "Christian" "universities." She sent me this:

https://www.liberty.edu/studentaffairs/deanofmen/index.cfm?PID=2925

First of all, after watching the McDougal flocast piece, I think I may have to report him to Falwell. Secondly, the "Libery Way" handbook sounds like a certain Deutsch fuhrer of the 1930s and 40s...

Good times.

I'm sorry, but I just couldn't let this slip. He did NOT race hard at UVA and I don't know where you got the impression that he did.

Oh you did NOT just compare the Liberty way to something from Adolf Hitler...Im going to take some time to let my raging anger cool before posting but know I completely disagree with that comparison.

Some good stuff from the the Liberty Way:

Reprimands and Consequences

4 Reprimands + $10 Fine

* Disturbance/non-participation during Convocation

* Dress/hair code violation: male or female

* Failure to respond to an official call slip (for Student Affairs use only)

* Horseplay (plus financial restitution)

* Improper personal contact (anything beyond hand-holding)

* Missing Convocation

* Music code violation

6 Reprimands + $25 Fine

* Attendance at a dance

* Direct disobedience/disrespect

* Entering entryway of opposite sex on campus or allowing the same

* Gambling

* Improper social behavior

12 Reprimands + $50 Fine

* Attendance at, possession or viewing of, an "R," "NC-17" or "X"-rated movie

* Entering the residence hallway of the opposite sex or allowing the same

* Out of residence hall overnight or substantial portion of the night without permission (after 2:00 a.m.)

* Participation in an unauthorized petition or demonstration

* Possession and/or viewing of sexually explicit material

* Students of the opposite sex visiting alone at an off-campus residence

12-18 Reprimands + Corresponding Fine

* Obscene, profane or abusive language or behavior

18 Reprimands + $250 Fine

+ 18 hours Disciplinary Community Service

* Association with those consuming alcohol

* Entering a residence hall apartment or quad of the opposite sex or allowing the same

* Entering bedroom of the opposite sex on/off campus or allowing the same

* Sexual misconduct and/or any state of undress

30 Reprimands + $500 Fine

+ 30 hours Disciplinary Community Service + possible Administrative Withdrawal. NOTE: For each accumulation of six or more reprimands after 30, an additional $150 fine will be assessed.

* Abortion

* Failure of three Christian/Community Services without reconciliation

* Illegal drugs-association/possession, use/distribution (minimum two semesters out)

* Immorality

* Involvement with witchcraft, séances or other occult activities

* Possession or consumption of alcoholic beverages

* Refusal to submit to an Alco-Sensor test and/or drug test as specified by the administration

* Spending the night with a person of the opposite sex

* Two or more individuals of the opposite sex together in hotel/motel room without proper permission

No fair skin and no blue eyes = no admission and potential target for hate crime.

Tolsma is not his coach, he already has one.