I'd pay the ticket and then write letters of complaint about that jerk to the city or county, head of the park police, the appropriate judge and whoever else can force him to explain his actions. Just don't lie and be very courteous in your letter. Address the judge as "Your Honor". .
Does nobody understand that the officer told this idiot he was LETTING HIM OFF WITH A WARNING and instead of thanking the officer, he gave him attitude? Why the hell would you ever do that? Right or wrong its incredibly stupid.
Who cares when dusk is? A judge will tell you he knows it when he sees it and the spirit of the law was being broken.
Asking to define dusk is a valid question.
Most public parks close at an actual time and there are closing times usually posted in the entrance/exits.
one, this isn't a "park", it's a trail. second, when a "park" doesn't have artificial lighting, it's difficult to set a specific time for closing because the natural light changes.
Spiderwoman wrote:
Asking to define dusk is a valid question.
Most public parks close at an actual time and there are closing times usually posted in the entrance/exits.
See how much a judge who works these types of cases cares about defining dusk. He won't care at all, and will be pissed he has to deal with something that could have been avoided if the guy had just told the officer he was sorry and went on his way.
Okay, I might fight it. Mainly because I got hassled one time many years back, and it still bothers me today.
I was running with my girlfried - we were 17 - and we were running in Reynolda Village in Winston-Salem.
We had parked down near where Ken's Bike Shop used to be, and run into Wake's XC trails for about 45 minutes.
This was fall, and we were returning to the car via that paved trail over the waterfall at about 5pm, and a cop was at my car. I was thinking someone had hit my car or something, and ran right up to him to see what he was doing.
He told me he was running my plates because I was in the park past dusk. I explained that we had been running, and that I didn't even know the park closed. He said it didn't close, but that our car looked suspicious and he wanted to search it. I was as clean as can be, and drove a new honda civic.
I was trying to be polite to the cop, but I was getting kind of pissed. Anyway, I let him search my car while my girlfriend stretched about 20 feet away. He obviously didn't find anything, but told us we had to immediately leave the premises or he was going to call our parents.
He said we had no business being there because the stores were closed, it was getting dark, and the only thing open was the Village Tavern - where he said that we were too young to be anyway. Funny thing is that the VT is a restaurant were I frequently took my girlfriend for dinner, but this dumb cop didn't know that.
Anyway, I just sat there and took it, and we left after he ran our names and my plates.
To this day, I wish I would have stood up to him a little more. That was over 10 years ago.
The main thing that makes me mad was that we were the picture of wholesomeness. Two young kids out running while most of our friends were probably drinking and having sex. He chose to be a dick to us.
Kind of makes me think of that Flaming Lips song - Fight Test.
No point in complaining to the police that he ws rude. That would be like calling Burger King and complaining that there was a burger in your hamburger. Anytime the police do our job someone invariably ends up pissed off
and typically perceives us as rude. Indeed many times we are rude but to be honest, in many cases people are too drunk, too pig-headed or are of the lifestyle that the only thing they understand is the type of communicating that they're used to. You said yourself that you thought the park closed after dark, therefore pony up the 50 bucks and next time stay out.
The problem with talking back to cops, even when you are right, is that they have the power and will be viewed that way.
A little while ago I got stopped for speeding on a road where everyone speeds. The guy pulled me over, and asked what my excuse was for going so fast. I just said "sir, I have no reason." He ended up letting me off even though I was going 15 mph over and told me he had just ticketed a lady that talked back to him. He actually thanked me for being honest and polite.
A lot of times if you are polite you will get off, even if they give you attitude. The officer has all the power in those situations. If they want to search and you have nothing to hide then what's the problem? That is the way I look at it.
............. wrote:
Does nobody understand that the officer told this idiot he was LETTING HIM OFF WITH A WARNING and instead of thanking the officer, he gave him attitude? Why the hell would you ever do that? Right or wrong its incredibly stupid.
Because he should not have to thank the office in the first place. The officer was not doing him a favor. He was harassing him because that's what bad cops do.
Monon Runner wrote:
I appreciate your input, but 10 minutes after sunset, there is plenty of light.
"Dusk" is a vary vague term. I was attempting clarification. I don't think that's too much to ask. Searching a couple of online dictionaries produces results like "the darker part of twilight especially at night". I can't say exactly what that means -- apparently, neither could he![/quote]
You were right, the cop was wrong. Dusk is nightfall, when the lightning bugs come on and you can get ticketed for driving without headlights. The beginning of twilight is not dusk. You should fight this thing with every corpuscle in your body. The cop is being a thug and a bully. Fight back for a better America. Or whatever.
---------------- wrote:
............. wrote:Does nobody understand that the officer told this idiot he was LETTING HIM OFF WITH A WARNING and instead of thanking the officer, he gave him attitude? Why the hell would you ever do that? Right or wrong its incredibly stupid.
Because he should not have to thank the office in the first place. The officer was not doing him a favor. He was harassing him because that's what bad cops do.
And now he has a ticket instead of having no ticket. People are jerks, and you do what you can to minimize contact with them. The original poster complicated a pretty easy situation.
He isn't fighting a great civil rights battle that will change the world. A Park Police officer using his own discretion as to what "dusk" is, is a far cry from Bull Connor and firehoses.
He was off the hook and put himself right back on. His own damn fault.
we can't really know if the cop would not have held to his "not going to give you a ticket" pledge in the first place. People who are dicks, are usually going to do what they are going to do and only try to make you think somehow it is your fault in the end. (kind of the way abusive people learn to operate)
so we shouldn't be too quick to judge...if the facts are all true simply asking for a clarification on when dusk begins does not merit a change in the citation. and 10 minutes after the sun goes down is a very valid question - is this dusk?
1) fight the ticket - the time should be on it so you have proof - just get a print out of when the sun set that day
2) also file a complaint on the officer. While nothing major should happen over one event, if previous complaints or future complaints are filed yours serve to create a paper trail...this keeps the authorities from saying well, we've never had any complaints before about this officer.
we can't really know if the cop would not have held to his "not going to give you a ticket" pledge in the first place. People who are dicks, are usually going to do what they are going to do and only try to make you think somehow it is your fault in the end. (kind of the way abusive people learn to operate)
so we shouldn't be too quick to judge...if the facts are all true simply asking for a clarification on when dusk begins does not merit a change in the citation. and 10 minutes after the sun goes down is a very valid question - is this dusk?
1) fight the ticket - the time should be on it so you have proof - just get a print out of when the sun set that day
2) also file a complaint on the officer. While nothing major should happen over one event, if previous complaints or future complaints are filed yours serve to create a paper trail...this keeps the authorities from saying well, we've never had any complaints before about this officer.
A large part of law enforcement is educating the public about the law. It is perfectly acceptable for someone to ask questions clarifying laws.
"The officer has all the power in those situations. If they want to search and you have nothing to hide then what's the problem? That is the way I look at it."
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Need I say more!
Spiderwoman wrote:
See how much a judge who works these types of cases cares about defining dusk. He won't care at all, and will be pissed he has to deal with something that could have been avoided if the guy had just told the officer he was sorry and went on his way.
Do you seriously think the judge will be "pissed" because he has to deal with a petty case? What, do you think the type of judge who hears this case is dealing with high-profile murder cases all the time?
If you've ever sat through traffic court before, you would know that 99% of cases are no more compelling than this "in the park after dusk" ticket. It's the judge's job to hear this type of case. I suppose the judge could be unhappy about his or her lot in life, but this particular case will be no more or less annoying than a seatbelt or speeding violation.
If anything, a judge is likely to be less annoyed than usual because "Monon Runner" actually has a credible defense. (Most people have no substantive defense at all; they just show up in court in the hopes that the officer won't show.)
There is genuine ambiguity about the term "dusk." If Monon Runner shows that civil twilight was at 6:01--and if he can make the argument that he was stopped at least three minutes before the ticket was written--then he actually has a decent case. I've seen plenty of judges who would throw out that citation.
I'm not arguing the cop may have been a power hungry jerk, or that the ticket was ticky-tacky, but he was told he was being let off with a warning, and any sane person would say thank you and leave. He obviously gave the guy attitude, and now even if the ticket gets tossed look at all the time he'll spend fighting it. So who comes out the loser here? The officer? The park police? The courts? No. The original poster, and its all because he couldn't walk way.
I think park rangers are generally disgruntled because they couldn't make the police force.
To wit, my brother was taking his dog for a walk in a huge park, no one was around, so he let the dog off the leash. Amazingly, the dog caught a squirrel (overweight dog, poor eyesight). Next thing he knows, a park ranger pulls up, pulls a fricking gun on my brother (or the dog, but he pulled a gun), and tells him to get the dog on a leash. My brother was in handcuffs for two hours putting up with this guy's power trip. All because his dog was off a leash. I might add, there are no posted leash laws at this park.
Then too, a female was raped not two months earlier in this very same park, yet the ranger thought in the middle of the day this dog, with no people around, was dangerous enough to pull a gun on. It's a mid-sized black lab by the way.
Yes, there have been a couple of issues this summer with the monon. A week ago some guy was out and pointed a gun at two separate groups of individuals on the monon-something a bit odd. Late in the summer, a guy was riding his bike at ~ 8:00PM (clearly in the dark) when some kids, one being 18 and the other a minor, decided they wanted his 10$ bike. They took his bike, beat him until he was almost dead, covered him with a bunch of rubble and left him for dead. Someone heard him and got him to the hospital where he was stayed for about a week. I believe he was unconscious for more than a day. He had an enormous number (100's) of stitches across and around his face. Pretty bad attack. He was definitely traveling through an area that most people would not feel comfortable. I cycle to work through that area but am very careful even when it is light out. Funny thing is, the guy they beat up worked at the Wheeler mission downtown and was riding home. It was a shame. Between the two incidents, evidently they are cracking down on the hours. Problem is, where you were running probably isn't where they have their issues, but then again, who wants to patrol that area!
This might be the reason why the park ranger got so bent. The park ranger doesnt like strangers in the park because the park ranger likes a little "after the sun goes down fun" with the local park people. The park ranger wasnt trying to keep the place safe, the park ranger was trying to keep his secret safe......I would use that defense in court, if the ranger even shows up in court. If you lose you can snicker at the park ranger and people will wisper about him.