Living in the past wrote:
If you think Ryun's high school mile record was more important than Ryun reaching his ultimate potential, then you're right that Timmons did a great job on Ryun.
Define "ultimate potential".
And how do you know that you EVER get there?
drew, I really appreciate your insights on this thread. Thanks for sharing them with us.
hindsight is 20-20, these guys had no idea about burnout, etc.
perhaps it was burnout... perhaps not. there are countless examples on both sides... athletes who only got better despite hard work at a young age and athletes who burned out
two examples i can think of on either side would be paula radcliffe and gerry lindgren
Wow, we've got Kevin McGinn, Nate Miller, Jack Daniels, Charlie Gray, Mike Fanelli on this thread. This is great. Did I miss anyone else?
And I think Living in the past's questions are completely legit-I don't sense that he is being a troll, just asking what needs to be asked. I do take umbrage with the accusation that Timmons did not produce any other good runners/teams.
Kevin-what's the word these days? Drop me an email at
. Yes, I am digitizing dad's 1967 journal (and probably others) as well as other American milers. It's just a matter of having the time to work through them all. I am trying to get as much done during Congressional recess and before our baby comes. I pasted below a few weeks of dad's spring 1967 training. Pardon any typos. I have literally been entering this as fast as possible and have not gone back and edited it yet.
March 6th-March 12th (1967)
Monday: 5 sprint miles. In evening, 3 miles cross country then 1x660, jog 440, 2x550, jog 440, 3x440, jog 440, 4x330, jog 440, 5x220, one mile warmdown.
Tuesday: 12 miles cross country then 18x165, one mile warmdown.
Wednesday: One mile easy, 10x100, one mile easy.
Thursday: Flew to Detroit. No run.
Friday: Ran 880 prelims, 2nd in heat, 1:54.8. Ran mile heats, won in 4:08. Came back in 880 final, 2nd in 1:50.7.
Saturday: Raced the mile, won in 3:58.6. Splits of 58, 2:01.5, 3:02.9.
Sunday: 12 miles cross country in 1 hour and 15 minutes, a bit tired.
March 13th-March 19th
Monday: One mile easy, 10x330 with 110 walk as rest, 1 1/2 mile warmdown. In evening, one mile easy then 4x120, 4x60, 1x880 (2:07), 440 jog, 2x660 (1:33, 1:34)) with 220 jog as rest, jog 440, 3x440 (58, 59, 59) with 220 jog as rest, jog 440, 4x330 (43s) with 110 walk as rest, jog 440, 5x220 (27s) with 220 jog as rest, jog 440, 6x165 with 165 jog as rest, one mile warmdown. 14 miles for the day.
Tuesday: Studied for a test in the morning. In evening, one mile warm-up, 8x165 with 165 jog as rest, jog 440, 8x165 with 165 jog as rest, jog 440, 8x165 with 165 jog as rest, jog 440, 8x165 with 165 jog as rest, one mile warmdown. 9 miles for the day.
Wednesday: 5 miles cross country in 30 minutes. In evening, 14 miles very fast but very tired afterwards and went to bed early. 19 miles for the day.
Thursday: 5 miles over hills in 35 minutes. In evening, 6x440 on a 3 minute interval, averaged 64s, jog 880, 6x440 on a 3 minute interval, averaged 63s, jog 880, 6x440 on a 3 minute interval, averaged 63s, jog 880, 6x440 on a 3 minute interval, averaged 62s, jog 880, 6x440 on a 3 minute interval, averaged 61s, last one in 54. Jogged one mile warmdown. 16 1/2 miles for the day.
Friday: 5 miles cross country in 30 minutes. In evening, one mile warmup, then 6 sets of 1x660 with 110 walk as rest, 1x165 with 165 walk. One mile warmdown. 14 miles for the day.
Saturday: 5 miles cross country, hard and fast in 28 minutes. In evening, 10 miles of everything-hills, cross country. Ran hard all the way. 15 miles for the day.
Sunday: 15 miles of cross country in 1 hour and 30 minutes. Jogged the last 2 miles, busted tail on the first 13 miles. 15 miles for the day.
102 1/2 miles for the week
March 20th-March 26th
Monday: One mile easy, 10x330 with 110 walk rest, 1 1/2 miles easy. In evening, 4 miles cross country then 1x880 (2:04), jog 440, 2x660 (1:30 avg.), 220 jog between as rest, jog 440, 3x440 (59s) on 3 minute interval, jog 440, 4x330 (43s) with 110 walk as rest, jog 440, 5x220 (26.5 avg.) with 220 jog between as rest, jog 440, 6x165 with 165 jog as rest, one mile warmdown. Lifted weights. 14 miles for the day.
Tuesday: Overslept in the morning. In the evening, 2 miles cross country, 6x220 (25.5 avg.) with 220 jog as rest, jog 440, 6x220 (25 avg.) with 220 jog as rest, jog 440, 6x165 with 165 jog as rest, 2 miles cross country. 9 miles for the day.
Wednesday: One mile easy, 10x330 with 110 walk, 1 1/2 miles easy. In evening, 15 miles cross country in 1 hour and 30 minutes. 20 miles for the day.
Thursday: Ran 6 miles easier than usual in 40 minutes. In evening, 6 miles in 36 minutes then 1 mile of 110s hard/easy, one mile warmdown. 14 miles for the day.
Friday: 5 miles cross country in Los Angeles down to beach, easy.
Saturday: Won mile in 4:05, splits of 62, 2:05, 3:08.8. Came back 45 minutes later to win 880 in 1:48.1. 54.5 at 440.
Sunday: 1 hour and 30 minutes along the beach, about 12 miles, easier than usually.
79 miles for the week
March 27th-April 2nd
Monday: Sick and did not run.
Tuesday: 5 miles in 27 minutes, legs felt great, but was still quite weak from cold. In evening, 8 miles in 45 minutes, legs again felt great, but still weak from cold.
Wednesday: 5 miles in 27 minutes. In evening, 5 miles in Norman, OK on way to Texas Relays.
Thursday: Nothing, slept in, 3 miles in evening in Austin, TX.
Friday: 880 anchor on sprint medley, 1:46.1. Splits of 25,52.5, 1:20. Cold made me feel a little weak still.
Saturday: Anchored 4 mile relay in 4:04.7. Splits of 58, 2:04, 3:09. Felt tired from cold.
Sunday: 14 miles in 1 hour and 25 minutes, a bit tired from travel. In Louisiana.
54 miles for the week
April 3rd-April 9th
Monday: One mile easy, 10x330, 1st 5 on very short rest, 1 1/2 miles easy. In evening, one mile easy then 2x880 (2:12, 2:10) with 220 jog as rest, jog 440, 2x660 (1:34, 1:30) with 220 jog as rest, 440 jog, 2x440 (56, 55) with 220 jog as rest, jog 440, 2x330 (39.8, 40) with 220 jog as rest, jog 440, 2x220 (24.9, 24.3) with 220 jog as rest, jog 440, 10x120 with 120 jog as rest, 2 miles of easy jogging. 14 miles for the day.
Tuesday: 5 miles in 30 minutes. In evening, one mile easy then 8x165 with 165 jog as rest (18.5s), jog 440, 8x165 with 165 jog as rest (18.5s), jog 440, 8x165 with 165 jog as rest (18.5s), 1 1/2 mile as warmdown. 13 miles for the day.
Wednesday: Fished all day on the Gulf. Got a bad sunburn.
Thursday: One mile easy, 10x330, 1st 5 on short rest, 1 1/2 miles easy. In evening, one mile easy then 10x330 with 110 walk as rest (42s), jog 880, 10x220 with 220 jog as rest (26s, last one in 23.4), jog 3 miles. 15 miles for the day.
Friday: 6 miles very fast in 35 minutes. 6 miles easy in evening. 12 miles for the day.
Saturday: Raced 100 in 10.3 then ran 6 laps of the 2 mile, dropped out with a bad sideache, ran 3/4 mile afterwards in 3:00.7.
Sunday: Drove home to Lawrence, no run.
April 10th-April 16th
Monday: One mile easy, 10x330, 1 1/2 miles easy. In evening 14 miles in 1 hour and 15 minutes, felt good all the way. 19 miles for the day.
Tuesday: 5 miles over hills in 30 minutes. In evening, 2 miles then 4x220 with 55 yard walk as rest, jog 440, 4x220 with 55 yard walk as rest, jog 440, 4x220 with 55 yard walk as rest, jog 440, 4x165 with 55 yard walk, jog 440, 4x165 with 55 yard walk, jog 440, 4x165 with 55 yard walk, one mile warmdown.
Wednesday: Did not run, heavy rain. In evening, 2 miles then 10x120 with 120 jog, jog 440, 10x120 with 120 jog, jog 440, 10x120 with 120 jog, jog 440, then 3 sets of 1 Campinelle, 10 pushups, 10 situps, 10 squats, 2 1/2 miles warmdown
Thursday: Rained again-and no rain gear so didn’t run. In evening, 10 miles cross country. Felt good.
Friday: Ran 4 miles easy. In evening ran 6 miles easy.
Saturday: Raced in Albuquerque, NM. Won the mile in 4:11 the 880 in 1:50.9. Both wins were quite easy and I noticed no effects from altitude.
Sunday: Ran up a mountain near the hotel. About 8 miles, took an hour and twenty minutes.
April 17th-April 23rd
Monday: 1 1/2 miles easy, 10x330, one mile easy. In evening, 2 miles cross country then 3x440 (59, 64, 59), jog 440, 2x44 (NT), jog 440, 3x330 (42.5, 46.5, 42.5), jog 440, 3x220 (27, 30, 26.5), jog 440, 2x220 (NT), jog 2 miles easy. 13 miles for the day.
Tuesday: No morning run, in evening jog 2 miles then 440 in 49.6, jog 440, 330 in 36.6, jog 440, 220 in 24.0, jog 2 miles easy. 5 miles for the day.
Wednesday: 4 miles easy.
Thursday: 3/4 mile easy, stretch, 3/4 mile easy.
Friday: Nothing
Saturday: Raced mile at Kansas Relays. Won in 3:54.7. Splits of 58, 1:58, 2:58. 1500m in 3:39.4. Split 47.0 on mile relay later.
Sunday: Nothing
Thanks Drew...your Dad was obviously the biggest stud of all studs...his capacity for hard hard work inpires me to this very day...what he accomplished as a young man with far less understanding of exercise phys than we have today is mind bending...oh, and to have done it all on cinder tracks??? Crazy!
MF
(ps, you may recall me as the Reebok guy back in the mid 80s)
Not true story, he ran 5:30s didn't make his team then ended up running 4:08 before school began in AAU.
Maybe if Jack Daniels had coached Jim Ryun, Ryun would have reached his potential. Or Arthur Lydiard, who was probably the most famous coach in the world at that time. Timmons apparently thought he had nothing to learn from Lydiard. After all, Ryun did beat Snell when Ryun was just in high school. But by that time, Snell and Lydiard were on the outs and Snell was just doing his own thing, not performing up to his potential. It's a shame that Timmons didn't try to raise his understanding by studying Lydiard. Instead, he just applied swimming workouts to track.
To think that Ryun was as physically mature at 19 as he would have been at 26 is possible, I guess. But if that were the case, he would be a statistical outlier. Most likely, he would have been stronger at 26 than at 19.
Living in the past wrote:
To think that Ryun was as physically mature at 19 as he would have been at 26 is possible, I guess. But if that were the case, he would be a statistical outlier. Most likely, he would have been stronger at 26 than at 19.
Or, it was the intense training that enabled Jim to run 3:51. We just don't know whether he would have run as fast if his training was altered. I know of a sub 13:30 5K distance runner who was trained by a swim coach and then switched to a more traditional training scheme and he insists that the swim type training (which was very intense) was most effective for him.
You really like to point fingers. At the time, I think that Timmons looked at Councilman (sp), the swim coach at Indiana as the leading researcher.
Why would Timmons have studied a swim coach rather than the greatest running coach? Does that make sense to you?
Living in the past wrote:
Maybe if Jack Daniels had coached Jim Ryun, Ryun would have reached his potential. Or Arthur Lydiard, who was probably the most famous coach in the world at that time. .
You still did not answer my question of defining "full potential". Or answer how you can recognize when you have hit that elusive target.
Maybe 3:51.1 on a cinder track by himself with the equipment of the day was his potential?
Fanelli-of course I remember you! Especially from the Bix 7 years. I think we were there twice in the mid-late 80s. Great event.
Living in the past-Timmons was doing what he felt best at that time. He did not have the benefit of 40 years hindsight. I am amazed at the bulk of research, date, etc that coaches today have to look back on. Who did Timmons have in the track world at that time?
Jack-entering the portion of dad's journal from his time in Alamosa in 1967. I did not realize the struggle he had to adapt. And then he runs relatively modest workouts, but goes down to CA and runs 3:51.1 and 3:33.1. After his 3:51.1 he does not note that it was a WR, just that it "Felt very easy."
Jtupper could probably chime in on this. I think that at that time Councilman had the best research labs and had done the most scientific work on athletic response to work loads.
chgray. Ultimate potential would be the best performance that the athlete would have been capable of assuming that he continued long enough and had good coaching. For a miler, the peak age is around 26. I believe that Coe and Aouita set their mile PRs at 26, for example.
Do you really think that Ryun's decline as a runner, which began at the age of 21, was due to advancing age?
I'm confused as to what your aim is here. Drew has already offered this:
"Timmons did over-train dad and I think he and dad would both admit that today."
Isn't that the point you were trying to make? You went from raising legitimate questions about Ryun's training issues piling on Bob Timmons, a man who has and continues to achieve much, for reasons I can't understand.
I didn't think your intentions were malicious at first, but it seems that you want a general smear of Timmons' accomplishments here. There are certainly elements of Timmons' style that would have rubbed me the wrong way, and I have heard the man himself admit and take fault for the fact that his intensity didn't work for many of his athletes, but this does not mean that he did not accomplish some truly wonderful things both for both his individual athletes, Wichita East HS, and the University of Kansas.
drewr...great stuff and thanks for putting it on the sight...
My son is just getting started in the running game and he just started asking me questions about Jim and Pre and others from the past...it has been a joy telling him stories about those great athletes...I have all of Jim's books and at a camp in Baldwin KS I got him to autograph them...great stuff...
By the way hello to you and mikef, kevinm, charlie and others...
Drew, get your dad on the thread, that would really make it special.
KevinM. At this point, all I'm doing is responding to questions. But my responses lead to more questions. As long as people are asking me these questions, I'll go on answering them. If you see any inaccuracy on my part about Timmons regarding Ryun, please point it out.
Carnivore-I was just thinking that. He's swamped with his campaign back in KS, but I'll get him on here one day just for kicks.