If only we had a frame of reference to figure that out. Oh yeah, he did run at sea level...and ran ... guess what time...4:10.
I was just using those guys as examples -- because I think there are dozens of examples like that.
Enough with these altitude conversions. it puts the other normal kids at a disadvantage. And Aidan didn't even make the seeded heat by the way. That was my point.
sorry, one race does not give you a real "frame of reference." have you ever raced at altitude? if you have, you would never, ever, ever claim normal (sea level?) kids have a "disadvantage" because of these conversions. yes, some are affected more than others, some less, but there's plenty of science to back up most conversions, and i don't mind at least anecdotally adding that i truly suffer at altitude in ways i've never suffered at sea level...
Arcadia seems to be a real mess this year. Did someone that usually helps organize things not come back this year? He just sent out an email that said "In both the Girls 400 and the Boys 4x100, ALL non-accepted entries were accidentally exported onto the Alternates List. Please know that it is unlikely that a girls’ 400m sprinter registered slower than 57.67 or a boys’ 4x100 registered slower than 42.76 will have any chance of receiving a lane."
The way the list people as accepted but they are really on the alt list is weird and misleading.
L.A. has for hundreds of years been the pro, college, prep, participation, etc. sports center of the world. At first it was the French Riviera on the cheap. Then a haven for those with Tuberculosis. Beach running started in those days. After WWII the rise of the Middle Class enabled recreational sports participation to blossom in L.A. Now L.A. beaches have more runners on any single given week day than all the maras and 1/2s in the world combined. Runners are L.A. Runners are not an oddity. Runners are NOT something to stare at and take a iPhone snap in L.A. like each place else outside of So Cal. Rich Gonzales, Arcadia, etc. are this L.A. tradition. Hope this helps.
It's funny how Aidan Antonio being in the open race set off a letsrun firestorm! I am one of the cross country coaches and the distance track coach at Woodbridge, and I think Aidan being in the open race is completely fair and reasonable given that he's getting back from injury. We cannot control the race that he gets put in (which is good because we're biased), but we make the most of the opportunities regardless. In the long term this can be beneficial because it's a long post season anyway and state is really the most important. Would it be ideal if he was in the Invitational heat? Of course, but the end goal is State and while Rich Gonzalez doesn't make all of the correct decisions, he has reasons for his decisions and he's well within his right as a meet director to do so. Given the situation, the open heat might even work to his advantage in the long term. Again, making the most of the opportunities given. I agree with the sentiment that Arcadia is not the end goal. While Arcadia is an awesome meet, the goal is to keep improving past Arcadia and focusing on the post season.
I hear what you are saying. For the top tier kids it doesn't matter long term in their journey. Jude Ritzenhein is going to get in the fast heat going forward no matter what. He doesn't need the 'help' and if he were to be in a slower section one day, it won't have much impact on his career.
But there thousands of kids competing who aren't named Ritzenhein. Running 4-5 seconds faster in one heat over another can impact scholarship opportunities whether you want to admit it or not. Especially when you're talking about boys and their trajectory (sophomore/junior) with all the roster spot limits.
Lucas Alberts (Jesuit) ran 4:07 and posted "4 more seconds" -- because that's what it takes for him to get a scholarship/roster spot at one of the schools he's looking at. This is a 4:07/1:51 (junior) guy that's legitimately worried about getting his spot.
And for many, this is the PREMIER race where you'll set your season PR. So every second counts. I think that's the point made. The stakes are high for a lot of these atheltes.
And the point I made about no HS coaches liking Rich was a genuine thought/question. I was thinking maybe I could ask for a favor vs. one of my contacts. But everyone I know seems to think poorly of him or vice versa.
If you're on the bubble (fastest heat vs. the next fastest heat), I'm not sure it's always best to be in the top heat. Arcadia is SO DEEP that the next best heat will be incredibly fast. Different schools of thought, but I have found that kids do better near the front of a race vs. hanging on the back of a faster heat.
Yep true. I had a kid get in the top heat one year and barely broke 9:00 but was way in the back. I was surprised when he got in the top heat. I was expecting him to be in the next best heat and wish he had been, because then he would’ve been able to run near the front and he would’ve had a faster time because the pace wouldn’t have gone out so fast the first lap thanks to Lex and Leo ha ha
Yeah, I agree with this notion that fastest possible heat might not be great for everyone. Boys 3200m - there are 6 heats and unless you're an 8:40 guy it probably doesn't matter a ton.
Regarding Ritzenhein maybe you're right. He ran 4:10 at altitude. Wonder what he could run at sea level ?
If only we had a frame of reference to figure that out. Oh yeah, he did run at sea level...and ran ... guess what time...4:10.
I was just using those guys as examples -- because I think there are dozens of examples like that.
Enough with these altitude conversions. it puts the other normal kids at a disadvantage. And Aidan didn't even make the seeded heat by the way. That was my point.
He proved himself in the altitude race and there absolutely should be an altitude adjustment. His two teammates ran quite a bit faster from the prior week at altitude (5 seconds and 8 seconds faster). If you watched the Oregon race and the post race interview, it was clear that the freshman struggled with positioning in that crowded mile. It sounds like it was a good learning experience, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was able to run much better at Arcadia since it is a smaller heat. Everyone is seeded based off their best mark, including him. That's not favoritism.
Altitude conversion IS out of hand but I agree that the positioning/crowded factor at Oregon was bad. There were TWO freshman in that race and BOTH ran like idiots and clearly affected their times in a significant way. Jude had poor positioning and ran basically the same time he ran at altitude. The other freshman had even worse positioning and ran a second slower than he’d run indoors in January. Great experience for both of them. And Jude clearly belongs in Arcadia
He proved himself in the altitude race and there absolutely should be an altitude adjustment. His two teammates ran quite a bit faster from the prior week at altitude (5 seconds and 8 seconds faster). If you watched the Oregon race and the post race interview, it was clear that the freshman struggled with positioning in that crowded mile. It sounds like it was a good learning experience, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was able to run much better at Arcadia since it is a smaller heat. Everyone is seeded based off their best mark, including him. That's not favoritism.
Altitude conversion IS out of hand but I agree that the positioning/crowded factor at Oregon was bad. There were TWO freshman in that race and BOTH ran like idiots and clearly affected their times in a significant way. Jude had poor positioning and ran basically the same time he ran at altitude. The other freshman had even worse positioning and ran a second slower than he’d run indoors in January. Great experience for both of them. And Jude clearly belongs in Arcadia
Absolutely agree. Altitude can't be a huge deciding factor like it appears to be. There are kids running in all kinds of conditions. Are they taking wind, snow, rain and just overall regional considerations. I would say putting kids in multiple invitational races, which they can't do both, and taking those spots from other kids is a bigger deal. Or maybe hold to the standards posted and don't allow kids in, especially in the invitationals. I totally understand that being bumped down a section can be an asset but for some of these kids they know they can compete and simply weren't given the chance for really no reason at all, girls and boys combined. I don't want the job so will still be there to cheer but things could always use a little tweaking. Always going to have someone upset but real conversations can help see where cracks may be.
Having been on both sides of this equation, I will say that altitude conversions are very real and needed. We always look slow based on time every year coming down to Woodbridge, yet we have won 4 in a row. Why? Because we look a lot slower at Altitude than we will at sea level. A 4:10 at elevation is a 4:05 at sea level. Utah and Colorado are that loaded.
As a California coach it used to frustrate me too that athletes from out of state would get preference. As I look back on it now, I really didn't understand elevation marks and how they compared, and that had an effect on my judgement.
As for Rich, most people only see him in business mode. In that mode he is all business, which for those that don't know him well can seem a bit heartless at times. If you know him well behind the scenes where he isn't in business mode, he is a really nice and caring guy. Most just don't get to see that side of him.
As someone who doesn't have a Rich G figure in my state, feel blessed that you do. It makes a huge difference. He benefits you in ways that you have no idea versus what the rest of the country has.
even the Arcadia kids despised him during their heydey. lol at the time he shafted Estevan De La Rosa and put him in the seeded heat because Estevan was one of O'Brien's kids and DLR proceeded to smash everyone while soloing an 8:56 (going out in 61 and closing in 28.x)
People gripe about this and that. Seems trite. But with Meta, Facebook, Apple losing in court the other day now the veil is off and webbies are liable, accountable, and sueable. Arcadia is a frat with no money so you can't collect but you can still file a civil complaint and have your day in court. That's rue for Arcadia and the entire fanboi, wannabe webs cartel who pose as journalists at meets.
Absolutely agree. Altitude can't be a huge deciding factor like it appears to be. There are kids running in all kinds of conditions. Are they taking wind, snow, rain and just overall regional considerations.
ugh. though the rest of your post is balanced, you really don't have any idea what you're talking about here. i'm still guessing that most (maybe all?) the altitude critics posting here have NOT raced at altitude. you can account for altitude because we generally know how it affects you--with all the other conditions, you're generally just guessing, at least with distance races. you may want to consider that kids at altitude ALSO have to deal with wind, snow, rain, and even heat, but the altitude does NOT change with the seasons. because it's generally a constant, you can adjust for it. you cannot adjust for luck...
Altitude conversion IS out of hand but I agree that the positioning/crowded factor at Oregon was bad. There were TWO freshman in that race and BOTH ran like idiots and clearly affected their times in a significant way. Jude had poor positioning and ran basically the same time he ran at altitude. The other freshman had even worse positioning and ran a second slower than he’d run indoors in January. Great experience for both of them. And Jude clearly belongs in Arcadia
Absolutely agree. Altitude can't be a huge deciding factor like it appears to be. There are kids running in all kinds of conditions. Are they taking wind, snow, rain and just overall regional considerations. I would say putting kids in multiple invitational races, which they can't do both, and taking those spots from other kids is a bigger deal. Or maybe hold to the standards posted and don't allow kids in, especially in the invitationals. I totally understand that being bumped down a section can be an asset but for some of these kids they know they can compete and simply weren't given the chance for really no reason at all, girls and boys combined. I don't want the job so will still be there to cheer but things could always use a little tweaking. Always going to have someone upset but real conversations can help see where cracks may be.
100% agree - there should be no adjustment for racing with less oxygen.
L.A. was home to a vast population of indigenous native tribes before 1849 statehood so mankind has always relished the warmth, beaches, sun of L.A. Rich Gonzales, Arcadia HS, and CalPrepTrack.com didn't make L.A. the Greatest Civilization in the History of Mankind. SO give Rich a break please.
Having been on both sides of this equation, I will say that altitude conversions are very real and needed. We always look slow based on time every year coming down to Woodbridge, yet we have won 4 in a row. Why? Because we look a lot slower at Altitude than we will at sea level. A 4:10 at elevation is a 4:05 at sea level. Utah and Colorado are that loaded. . . .
First, thank you very much for posting on this forum.
You & other coach's such as Mike Scannell offer wonderful opportunities to us distance running fans to interact with you and gain insights into how you train your athletes and what we can look forward to from them.
Echo your sentiments regarding altitude conversions. Always seem controversial, especially with the 3200.
You mentioned Woodbridge above.
Happy you referred back to the xc season as I would like to bring up the Clovis Invite @ Woodward Park a few weeks later.
Since German Fernandez's 14:24.0/CR from 2007 had withstood the onslaught from the Newbury Park boys as well as everyone else dating back to when Woodward's various xc courses were laid out back in 1975, frankly was beginning to believe German's time was going to last thru the middle of the century.
Then your boy Jackson Spencer took it down to 14:16.9.
Just a couple seconds off the all-time course record of 14:14.5 set by 32-year-old professional Diego Estrada in 2022.
Those of us who follow CA xc running know how unbelievable that mark is, given the hilly and terrain-changing nature of the Woodward Park course. Significantly better performance than Colin Sahlman's 14:03.29 all-time fastest hs 5k xc time set back in 2001 when he won the RunningLane national title on that pancake-flat course. And, most likely, several seconds under 14-flat if run on a course like Woodbridge or RunningLane.
Of all the races Jackson ran last fall and this winter, that stands out, by far, as the most impressive. Mindboggling, actually.
So, questions: (1) was his intent to break German's record that day? (2) did you have any notion he could break 14:20, much less take it all the way down into the 14:16s? (3) was that his best race ever, even surpassing his national title wins?
Thank you, Coach Soles, for responding if you see this and get the chance.
I'm a meet director at a fairly large meet although not Arcadia big. It's impossible to make everyone happy when it comes to making cutoffs on heats. As a meet director you are also bombarded with a million requests for "put me in the fast heat". Kids, parents, and coaches requesting heats based on projections rather than what they actually have run. "I think I can run xx:xx in a fast heat", "I've had a great build up and feel like I'm in xx:xx shape". So frustrating and mind numbing. Mistakes are made and sometimes kids just get a hold of a great race from time to time. But that's why the races are run. Prove it on the track regardless of the heat.
Significantly better performance than Colin Sahlman's 14:03.29 all-time fastest hs 5k xc time set back in 2001 when he won the RunningLane national title on that pancake-flat course.
This is factually incorrect. The course in Huntsville is NOT pancake flat. You clearly have never been there if you are calling it that. It does not have giant hills but there is significant elevation change on the course. Please don't post lies. There are many courses that are flatter than that course.