As for 3200 im not sure, I havent ran one. Last year when I ran 4:31 tho, my 3200 was 10:07, and I was completely spent after that race.
The point is that when you don't race the 3200 you won't likely run fast times in it. My Junior year I ran the mile twice, 4:42 and 4:40. I rarely ran the mile. But I regularly ran two miles 9:38-9:26 (5 times). At the State meet I split 4:41/4:36. But I was a competitive racer, and that's what racers do.
If you start to race 3200 I suspect strongly your times will drop. It goes with the territory. Just know that 10s of thousands of runners have been exactly where you are. You can do this. Don't listen to the LRC naysayers. They've always been wrong.
Sure it does, people don’t typically run much faster than 2:00 without 54 or faster speed, and people don’t typically run much faster than 4:25 without sub 2:00 speed. This points to speed being the limiting factor here, and also points to OP getting as much as they are going to get out of their aerobic work with where their current speed and anaerobic endurance sits. When those 3 times line up (wagering a 3200m in the 9:30-9:40 range as well, lmk OP) it paints a very vivid picture of the athlete and their current fitness.
Training for and running a 54 second 400m by no means guarantees you will run anywhere near 2:00 flat for 800m, but training for and running around 2:00 flat for 800m carries a HUGE chance your current 400m ability sits in the 53-54 range.
OP probably needs to improve on that 800m in order to get to 4:15, and OP probably needs to improve on that 400m to get that 800m down. No amount of mileage increase or threshold work is going to create that breakthrough, because if there was big room for race specific aerobic growth there would be a lapse in the efficiency of times I.E. 51.5 2:06 4:52 10:55 instead of the 54-2:00-4:25 he’s claiming.
When wrong why not double down on it? The OP is plenty fast enough for 4:10/1:55 results.
I’m not wrong. You’d be hard pressed to find a 1:55 4:10 guy who can’t run faster than 54 or so over 400m. Exceedingly so a high schooler. Sure, there are genetic aerobic freaks that can build to that kind of economy but you shouldn’t bet on it nor should you plan on it in training, especially if there’s not already an indication that this is the case.
Just a curious kind of post. Is it possible for someone of my backround to go sub 4:15 in the mile, or am I underestimating the difficulty of this feat. Im a senior in hs and have ran consistently uninjured for the past 2 years. Last winter was hitting around 40 mpw, and during the track season around 35 mpw, ran 4:31, 2:02, and roughly 54 for the 400. Over the summer ran around 45-50 a week. This winter ive run 50-55 a week for around 3 months now, and have gotten my 1600 time down to 4:25. I reckon my 400 speed right now is roughly 53, and 800 around 2 flat. Haven't done super fast work yet so those might improve slightly come outdoor. The real question is with a few more years of training and building milage to much higher (ex. 70-80 mpw). Is it possible for me to run under 4 15. Or anyone of my nature. Or am I underestimating how big of a jump this really is?
Just skimmed this thread, not going to read every post but asked and answered. Of course you can get down under 4:15 with a few more years of progressively more and harder training. But, the question is, how fast can you go THIS year? Certainly you should be thinking sub 4:20. That’s a good start.
Adding doubles 3-5x per week would be very smart. Do you do any speed specific work or lifting/plyos, because that would help even one day per week? I might even do a long run if you’re not already there in the non-racing portion of the season. I’m not talking crazy like 14-15 miles. But do 10.
Just skimmed this thread, not going to read every post but asked and answered. Of course you can get down under 4:15 with a few more years of progressively more and harder training. But, the question is, how fast can you go THIS year? Certainly you should be thinking sub 4:20. That’s a good start.
Adding doubles 3-5x per week would be very smart. Do you do any speed specific work or lifting/plyos, because that would help even one day per week? I might even do a long run if you’re not already there in the non-racing portion of the season. I’m not talking crazy like 14-15 miles. But do 10.
One day I week Ill do something like 5x30 meter flies and plyos after to try and help with my speed. Long run is around 12 miles. I only double once a week typically though
Not that unusual for a sr to improve 10 seconds in the mile.
Your best hope is your 53 SEC 400. While that's not the 49 of superstar high school milers, it still separates you from the typical distance/strength runner who has a 60 SEC best at 400.
Just keep at it and be patient. Big jumps often come in the late May and June outdoor meets.
I like threads like this. Some really great advice, some no-so-great advice. Some posters weigh in, just to second guess you more than you already second guess yourself. I hope you can soak this all in, and take it for what it is, the stuff you have to work through to show the world, and yourself how good you really are. What time will you run? Ha. All that matters is how you get there.
Just skimmed this thread, not going to read every post but asked and answered. Of course you can get down under 4:15 with a few more years of progressively more and harder training. But, the question is, how fast can you go THIS year? Certainly you should be thinking sub 4:20. That’s a good start.
Adding doubles 3-5x per week would be very smart. Do you do any speed specific work or lifting/plyos, because that would help even one day per week? I might even do a long run if you’re not already there in the non-racing portion of the season. I’m not talking crazy like 14-15 miles. But do 10.
One day I week Ill do something like 5x30 meter flies and plyos after to try and help with my speed. Long run is around 12 miles. I only double once a week typically though
Perfect, so just start doing more doubles right now. Not all at once but progressively more each week. Race under and over distances when the season starts. You might surprise yourself.
53-54/2:02/4:25 says you’ve about maxed out your speed reserve, which means your aerobic base build has been a big success. Talk about running the 400 and or 800 at early season dual meets with your coach, and make sure to stay focused and purposeful during any kind of speed development work, whether that’s strides after an easy run, 800m pace work, hill sprints, your skips during warmups, weight room work etc.
If you get that 400m down to 51.x which is totally realistic that’ll open you up to as fast as 1:54-1:56 in the 800m and the 4:15 you want in the mile.
You’re in a very good spot coming into the season, keep yourself healthy, focus on nutrition, and be patient.
Improvements in the 400m are tough to come by and distance runner don’t run open 400m. Any improvements in 400m speed will come from interval training and not merely from running the distance in dual meets.
For a 4:25 miler, 10:07 is really slow and he should be capable of 9:40. The OP should focus on strength and not on trying to improve his 400m speed.
I wont comment on the time, but i will say you might not have to build milage that high. Remember one of the laws of training: get as good as you can on as little milage as you can for as long as you can. It seems like you are still making gains at your current milage and training, and your potential is probably not fully realized at that milage and intensity. So i would just be cautious about saying “i’m just going to jump by 20% milage and i’ll get better.” Because I think you can get a lot better at your current training with more time.
Clearly you’ve got talent. But don’t make the mistake of getting addicted to big jumps. Improvement comes from consistent training, consistent training comes from consistent health and trust. If you went 4:25-> 4:24->4:15 would that satisfy you? Like I said, you will continue to make progress, it just might not be linear
What the heck law is that? That's insane.
he's right, OP is just a kid, he would keep improving as long as he trains consistently and healthily. Put it another way: why should he up his mileage drastically when he's still improving? If a 16-year-old kid ran 3:48 off only 50-55mpw, there's no need for OP to run 70-80.
And CopperRunner nailed it, if anything he should work on his speed, rather than mileage.
Junior year you ran two miles in 9:17 (4:39 pace) but your mile PR was only 4:40?
Hmmm..
Yup. My reality was better than your math, and much more fun. I was 3rd. My teammate won, running the last two laps in 67 + 61 = 2:08. I ran 67 + 67 = 2:14.
Here's some more math for you. 2:08 was 8:32 pace. 2:14 was 8:56 pace. We were hauling azz.
No I did not make the Olympic team but I did set three ARs eventually.
I like threads like this. Some really great advice, some no-so-great advice. Some posters weigh in, just to second guess you more than you already second guess yourself. I hope you can soak this all in, and take it for what it is, the stuff you have to work through to show the world, and yourself how good you really are. What time will you run? Ha. All that matters is how you get there.
i'm not being a nay-sayer of the whole thing. i am saying
(a) for college recruitment purposes his theoretical time is meaningless. us telling him it's possible doesn't get it actually done in a meet. i quote this from the gospel of iverson. i don't think it's helpful counting unhatched chickens. go and do it. then let's talk.
(b) for college recruitment purposes a spring senior TF time isn't that helpful. but he's fudging if that's what this is about even though the time/goal seems to derive from a particular college's expectations for varsity recruitment.
(c) large goals seem to be more likely to cause depression even when you are partially successful. i shave 8 seconds. i should be happy for the PRs and intermediate goals. i am instead miserable because i over-asked.
(d) when you get to a decent level like he is at, improvement becomes more incremental. a 530 runner has dozens of easy seconds to cut, he gets fit, gets a little more speed, voila, 500. ditto even 445. but 425, we start to test natural limits and how much more you have left. some kids might plateau. some might shave 5 seconds.
i don't think any of us have the faintest if he can actually do it or not. i just don't like the process and don't trust his narrative. anytime i hear someone saying they want to dump a great deal of effort into this, on into college, but not get varsity out of it, i think they either are full of crap or too stubborn to stop and get what they really want.
this is like a distance thing. i don't know soccer players who say, i am not doing varsity here frosh year, i am going to sit out, train on the side, then try out later. no one would think training on the side alone is superior to some form of organized ball, and no one thinks about it like i can't make it this year, but i will stay put, and try out future years. if college coach a where they applied said no, they'd come up with a different college to start at. they'd transfer after a year. they wouldn't say, i will do club, i will train on my own, then have THE SAME EXACT COACH EVALUATE ME AGAIN. you go where you're wanted. he's a HS senior, he's not committed yet.
Anything is possible, but not everything will become possible. I don't think you need more mileage/volume per se. 45-55mpw with the right workouts/recovery at your age (if focusing more on 800/mile) is probably your sweet spot right now. More isn't always better. Sometimes it's just more. I agree with a few other posters that you probably need more speed/speed endurance type development incorporated into your training if focusing on 1600/mile distance, if not already doing so. Those reps between :45 - 90sec with short recoveries to teach your body to deal with rapid lactate buildup yet keep your biomechanics from falling apart as you fatigue. I think we would need to see the last 10-12 weeks of your training to really give you advice/ideas. Because we don't really know the specifics of your day in/day out training. But I will add this: learn how to recover with proper rest/nutrition. Most high school athletes are not well learned in those areas (nor their coaches sometimes). Good luck. Hope you get it.
now. and unless the coach has said, apply here, stay in touch, drop 10 seconds please, your desire to play for time doesn't factor in. you don't get to set your own recruiting rules. you have to work on their timescale and they need to know you exist and approve of your gameplan. otherwise it's just a vivid imagination.
there may still be some weaker colleges with later application deadlines that are still fishing. you need to do some actual homework.
If the OP is making his college choice based on his running times, then he is neither a student nor a college level athlete, so it really doesn't matter.
like, back in the day, i could have run at any nescac. had the times. but i probably wouldn't get admitted to the top 4 or so. i wouldn't get in ivies, and probably wouldn't make their teams. if i want to also run track, i focus on the remaining nescacs where i fit the profile and would make the team. i can apply to some of the ivies for the eff of it, but it's not happening. i could also send apps to power schools and get in then not make the team. i could apply to patriot league, get in, and maybe be a last walkon.
given that breakdown, if i apply to state U, i just said i don't care if i run again.
if you then tell me, but i want to try real hard for 4 years to train on my own and make the recruiting standard, (a) you really want to run varsity and (b) i just showed you where your actual running options are -- patriot, nescac, etc.
you can "dream" or you can "get er done."
and responding to your low-content aphorisms, i don't think the kid has ruined his life by choosing colgate or bates college instead of being another drone at UT or A&M, worse, one desperately training on his own to make a difficult team for anyone. he's not solely "picking for sports," he's making sure the chosen school has both and wants him. that doesn't actually mean the school is worse. that's in your head.
it's a nice story. i see some want to root for it. it's just a goofy way about it, and unlikely to get the desired endgame.
last, i find it hard to believe state U is the only school in the country with his major. i doubt he's majoring in east asian culture or meteorology. for example, plenty of university size d3s including chicago, hopkins, other UAA, harvey mudd, etc. would have engineering. and be top rated. it's fake to act like he must choose academics or sports. i think it's a sign of smarts you figured out how to get both. most of the kids who make this argument, my experience, daddy picked their school, or they were on autopilot until now and just realized what they want.
which, to me,, take a gap year, get what you want.
he's right, OP is just a kid, he would keep improving as long as he trains consistently and healthily. Put it another way: why should he up his mileage drastically when he's still improving? If a 16-year-old kid ran 3:48 off only 50-55mpw, there's no need for OP to run 70-80.
And CopperRunner nailed it, if anything he should work on his speed, rather than mileage.
Ignorance is bliss. Comparing the OP to Sam Ruthe is no different than comparing a toaster to a tennis ball.
CopperRunner didn't nail anything except for his own lack of experience and knowledge. Jumps from 4:25 to 4:15 have happened thousands of times over the decades. It's not unusual. This is an age where physical maturity is the primary driving force. The OP has all the right stuff to do it, just as long as he's kept away from crappy advice like yours. You have added nothing to the conversation.
OP, just keep your eye on the tennis ball, or the toaster if you choose. You'll be just fine.
to get at my point. if a buddy of mine says, i'm starting state U in the fall, i say, cool. he says, and i will play for the club soccer team there and have fun. cool. but if he then starts to talk about how hard he's going to train all summer, how he's signed up with some intense summer league squad, is doing ball skills drills every day at home, and practicing shooting on goal every few days at the local school. that maybe he could play pro somewhere eventually if this all works out......
........sorry, i would be a sh*tty friend to say anything except, are you sure you don't want to go someplace and play for real.
and it would probably take me 5 seconds to come up with a list of schools as good as State U with a team he'd make.
and only in distance do people seem to have this idea of going where they are told no or short of standards, and train there anyway. sprinters, hurdlers, jumpers.....they don't do this. they go to option B instead.
and to me if you're gonna be on the track 6 days a week, sweating your butt off, training yearround, working on your times, bumping into the actual team.......don't bs me......don't kid yourself......
