We talked about this thread a lot on the podcast and also debated Fisher vs Donavan Brazier in terms of talent and career. Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
Actually, talent for 5/10K guy is partially defined by 400m speed. Someone with 55 speed is not going to be within a minute of Fisher in the 5000m
Alberto Salazar's 5000m PR is within a minute of Fisher's, and he probably could not run 55.
Salazar was one of a kind. His long legs and shuffling stride resulted in tremendous efficiency. For everyone else, it’s extremely difficult to break 14:00 with 55 speed.
Grant does have a very good brain, it's extremely obvious in his interviews how knowledgeable he is about his body and his needs, he must be a dream to coach from a feedback perspective
1 - When people talk about ‘talent,’ they usually refer to top speed. I said he was not the most talented athlete I have ever coached (referring to top speed). That is completely true. I stand by this comment and will not dilverge which athletes could run faster over 400M or 200M, etc.
2 - I said his #1 talent is his mind. I stand by that comment and have made it several times during interviews. He is the most mentally talented person I have ever coached. Bar none. No one so far is close.
3 - I was unaware this session was being recorded. While I really don’t care much, it’s probably best to listen to the ’theme’ of the session rather than picking out a sentence or two and making an assumption. The theme was to get HS kids to train their lungs rather than their top speed in practice. I stand by that suggestion.
What does Grant’s mind do exactly? Can he override oxygen debt and bend steel with it. What is the conversion factor for Grant’s mind? Maybe one second per lap if transplanted to another runner?
You have the same conceit as many others, in believing an athlete wins because of mental toughness and not just talent. It’s an insult to other elite athletes. Pre used to make the same claim and in one of the Pre movies, Bowerman called him out on it.
He means that Grant's smarts allow him to have a small but crucial edge against other guys with similar raw ability (26:20-30 East Africans for example). Training smarter, not peaking early and tactically making the most out of his fitness in championships which allowed him to medal and finish ahead of the likes of Kejelcha.
Frankly, Grant Fisher's 'brain' is a liability on the track because he lacks the belief that he is the best and hence, with all the ability and fitness in the world, does not put himself into position to win. If he had Ingebrigtsen's mentality, he'd have challenged for multiple golds by now and probably won at least one. He wasn't going to beat Ingebrigtsen in the 5, but he's definitely had beatable guys in the 10. When you are absolutely flying at the end but come up short, you didn't go for it soon after or you let yourself lose position or fall back unnecessarily before the 400m mark. His Olympic performance this year was awesome, silver and bronze, but he still lacks the confident and strategic know-how to get into position on the outside shoulder of the leader, safe from being boxed in, rather than hugging the rail, and to give it everything when you might not be able to maintain that pace all the way to the finish.
Frankly, Grant Fisher's 'brain' is a liability on the track because he lacks the belief that he is the best and hence, with all the ability and fitness in the world, does not put himself into position to win. If he had Ingebrigtsen's mentality, he'd have challenged for multiple golds by now and probably won at least one. He wasn't going to beat Ingebrigtsen in the 5, but he's definitely had beatable guys in the 10. When you are absolutely flying at the end but come up short, you didn't go for it soon after or you let yourself lose position or fall back unnecessarily before the 400m mark. His Olympic performance this year was awesome, silver and bronze, but he still lacks the confident and strategic know-how to get into position on the outside shoulder of the leader, safe from being boxed in, rather than hugging the rail, and to give it everything when you might not be able to maintain that pace all the way to the finish.
2 bronzes and considered a bad brain for racing. You're pretty smart man.
Yes, two bronze, not a silver and a bronze. But Fisher's received a ton of criticism after previous championships for the same reason. He always puts himself in position to possibly medal if others falter at the end, but never win. With a 26:33 10k and 12:46 5k time, he had the ability to win in the 10 but wasn't confident enough to put himself close enough to the front to do it. And we all know that he has been boxed many times in champs because he hugs the rail instead of taking the outside of lane one to be ready to match any late moves to the bell. He is a very bright person and a very talented runner who nonetheless lacks tactical acumen and confidence enough to go for the wins.
Also says that he's "coached guys with better lungs and better blood values" but Grant's "best quality is his brain."
Footlocker Champ as Jr and Sr
Broke 4 in high school before super shoes were a thing
First American underclassman to win NCAA 5000 in 28 years
American Record holder in the 3000, 5000 & 10000
From one coach to another: Mr. Scannell, if you've coached so many guys with better lungs and more talent than Grant, you're doing a horrible job developing them!
Grant has always been a massive talent. And he's been successful no matter who coached him or what his priorities were outside of running. Yes, he's intelligent and has the ability to stay focused/relaxed while under considerable distress; he sounds like a real pleasure to work with, but to think he's not massively talented physically/physiologically as well is really a slap in the face of literally every other top American that has ever run the 3000/5000/10000 considering Grant is better than all of them.
Seriously you trust this guy? After what he has done to Grant this summer everybody now knows one way or another that he is a cheater
You would rather be a dentist than a 13:06 runner? A 13:06 runner would have a chance of moving up to the marathon and making the U. S. team. Mantz has run 13:10. Should he give up running to become a lawyer?
The above poster mentioned it is more financially sensible to become a dentist, which is definitely true.
There is something to be said about chasing a singular goal (running performance) being more rewarding than a good career you are not overly passionate about.
I stopped competitive running at 22. I would never have been a top runner, but i was running right around a four minute mile in college (never under). I went into medicine and I'm surely financially better off than had i pursued running as a vocation for another eight years. With that said, there is always a little "what if".
This would be a great premise to Once a Runner Part IV: The Rise of Quentin Cassidy Jr.
Frankly, Grant Fisher's 'brain' is a liability on the track because he lacks the belief that he is the best and hence, with all the ability and fitness in the world, does not put himself into position to win. If he had Ingebrigtsen's mentality, he'd have challenged for multiple golds by now and probably won at least one. He wasn't going to beat Ingebrigtsen in the 5, but he's definitely had beatable guys in the 10. When you are absolutely flying at the end but come up short, you didn't go for it soon after or you let yourself lose position or fall back unnecessarily before the 400m mark. His Olympic performance this year was awesome, silver and bronze, but he still lacks the confident and strategic know-how to get into position on the outside shoulder of the leader, safe from being boxed in, rather than hugging the rail, and to give it everything when you might not be able to maintain that pace all the way to the finish.
2 bronzes and considered a bad brain for racing. You're pretty smart man.
For a guy like Grant with a fake smile and fake legs and fake performances all enhanced illegally 2 bronzes is not too bad for all the doping. A guy who has NO STRENGTH whatsoever relative to strong men like kiplimo who is world xc strength champion but yet demonstrated strength beyond belief by bouncing back from the Paris 10k 5 days later to run a heat and 2 days later a final for 5k while kiplimo the real strong man was broken and bedridden with legs that are still shot shows you Grant is enhanced illegally
Grant does have a very good brain, it's extremely obvious in his interviews how knowledgeable he is about his body and his needs, he must be a dream to coach from a feedback perspective
Don’t trust Grant and don’t trust Mike Scandal no pun intended! Apart from being a show off Stanford grad, I think Chris Derrick is a smarter Stanford grad btw. Although I didn’t like that Chris was also under BTC.
I would much prefer Harvard grads like last years NCAA XC mens champion. That one has more brains, gotten injured in between and struggled to comeback and showed inconsistency consistent with a lack of illegal enhancement. No incredible magic from him and his coach at Harvard
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His coach is obviously incoherent and logically inconsistent. Claims Grant had abundant strength but from where and what? Grant has never been a biomechanically efficient runner nor excelled at world xc nor even tried to pursue world xc success while Lord Coe specifically stated that 10k medaling ability hinged only on xc experience and strength. Grant has none and the guy he beat kiplimo had in abundance so what strength has Grant? Is it strength of drugs or what??
we are not stupid fools but Mike is clearly caught lying.
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Actually, talent for 5/10K guy is partially defined by 400m speed. Someone with 55 speed is not going to be within a minute of Fisher in the 5000m
Actually, someone who only has 55 second speed is not suited for any t&f event post high school. Maybe 2:30 marathon someday or ultras but not t&f.
Irrelevant comment already. Read my posts Grant got to where he is today with dubious strength that not only of threshold training and long aerobic runs but of the capital letter D!
Also says that he's "coached guys with better lungs and better blood values" but Grant's "best quality is his brain."
Footlocker Champ as Jr and Sr
Broke 4 in high school before super shoes were a thing
First American underclassman to win NCAA 5000 in 28 years
American Record holder in the 3000, 5000 & 10000
From one coach to another: Mr. Scannell, if you've coached so many guys with better lungs and more talent than Grant, you're doing a horrible job developing them!
Grant has always been a massive talent. And he's been successful no matter who coached him or what his priorities were outside of running. Yes, he's intelligent and has the ability to stay focused/relaxed while under considerable distress; he sounds like a real pleasure to work with, but to think he's not massively talented physically/physiologically as well is really a slap in the face of literally every other top American that has ever run the 3000/5000/10000 considering Grant is better than all of them.
....
Oh how I WOULD LOVE this to get back to that coach. His comments degraded his coaching skills, Grant as an athlete, and all athletes he ever coached...what was he thinking 🤔?
1 - When people talk about ‘talent,’ they usually refer to top speed. I said he was not the most talented athlete I have ever coached (referring to top speed). That is completely true. I stand by this comment and will not dilverge which athletes could run faster over 400M or 200M, etc.
2 - I said his #1 talent is his mind. I stand by that comment and have made it several times during interviews. He is the most mentally talented person I have ever coached. Bar none. No one so far is close.
3 - I was unaware this session was being recorded. While I really don’t care much, it’s probably best to listen to the ’theme’ of the session rather than picking out a sentence or two and making an assumption. The theme was to get HS kids to train their lungs rather than their top speed in practice. I stand by that suggestion.
Thanks Mikey, apparently you haven’t convinced me to stand by you at all. Sorry to say that but many of us are clearly skeptical about you and a grants success. We have legitimate reasons to feel so too.
for one we don’t like the fact that you are throwing us red herrings about Grant being mentally talented or not the most physically talented or not having the top end speed when we clearly feel there is much more background space-time activity behind in the dark.
I’m trying to be tactful about the matter but I think you know what we are referring to?
anybody illegally enhanced obviously is going to feel a mental edge by default going into the race as he knows he has one up on the rest of the competitors. But that’s not intrinsically called mental talent. It’s lying talent! It’s lying to oneself!
Broke 4 in high school before super shoes were a thing
First American underclassman to win NCAA 5000 in 28 years
American Record holder in the 3000, 5000 & 10000
From one coach to another: Mr. Scannell, if you've coached so many guys with better lungs and more talent than Grant, you're doing a horrible job developing them!
Grant has always been a massive talent. And he's been successful no matter who coached him or what his priorities were outside of running. Yes, he's intelligent and has the ability to stay focused/relaxed while under considerable distress; he sounds like a real pleasure to work with, but to think he's not massively talented physically/physiologically as well is really a slap in the face of literally every other top American that has ever run the 3000/5000/10000 considering Grant is better than all of them.
....
Oh how I WOULD LOVE this to get back to that coach. His comments degraded his coaching skills, Grant as an athlete, and all athletes he ever coached...what was he thinking 🤔?
Cut straight to the chase yea. Your dissatisfaction in general about Mikey is really just a secret deep seated function of a suspicion of doping. I said it for you. All the feeling about degrading himself and his athletes is really just a habitual reflexive mechanism of a liar?
Quick follow up, I prob took Scannell out of context initially
As mentioned previously, I've coached a couple Foot Locker kids myself
But only 1 of them was a top-5 that I'd say has the same physical talent as Grant
That kid went to a prestigious college, ran 60-70 miles a week, drank at least half that many beers per week, showed a couple flashes of brilliance but never did anything of substance of course
To this day he is essentially doing nothing, but has zero desire to finally go all-in and build up to 100+ mile weeks to find out if he too can get a medal like his college teammate and close friend
It's honestly so frustrating to watch it all happen in seeming slow-motion; youth wasted on the young once again
In that sense, I agree Grant's brain is what really sets him apart from those who do in fact have the same physical talents as he does
Ok, I'm gonna reach out to that kid again. It's maddening standing by as someone avoids doing what they are naturally best at. The regret in later years when it's no longer possible is agonizing. "What if?" are literally the two most heartbreaking words to spring up in one's mind.
No one you coached had the talent of Fisher. You would have won a huge lottery if you did.
I’m tempted to say talent my foot!
ever heard of Chris Derrick and German Fernandez? Oh yea these 2 had a million times more talent individually than Grant.
Grant won foot locker in an era without the level of talent of Chris Derrick and German fernandez so is Grant really that talented? Grant runs with a very unusual idiosyncratic foot strike and arm swing too, not fluid at all and simply wastes too much energy in motion in space and time compared to Derrick and Fernandez.
Grant should just eat grass he is not fit to compete
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
Broke 4 in high school before super shoes were a thing
First American underclassman to win NCAA 5000 in 28 years
American Record holder in the 3000, 5000 & 10000
From one coach to another: Mr. Scannell, if you've coached so many guys with better lungs and more talent than Grant, you're doing a horrible job developing them!
Grant has always been a massive talent. And he's been successful no matter who coached him or what his priorities were outside of running. Yes, he's intelligent and has the ability to stay focused/relaxed while under considerable distress; he sounds like a real pleasure to work with, but to think he's not massively talented physically/physiologically as well is really a slap in the face of literally every other top American that has ever run the 3000/5000/10000 considering Grant is better than all of them.
Scannell was a high school coach. Once they leave high school, developing the talent is on other coaches. Compare Fisher to other comparably-talented athletes Scannell coached in high school. Apples to apples.
The problem is Mikey shouldn’t be commenting on a Grant that has changed so many coaching hands after leaving his charge because he doesn’t see or know what doping might have went on with Grant at BTC especially and he could make comments or views that he himself didn’t personally witness or see about and think that Grant is as innocent as a baby in doping