track dude wrote:
...when the pace explodes to a 4:20 at say mile 22, as it often happens in the big races...
Ummmmm....how often is that? Can't say I can quite pin down an instance when a 4:20 was dropped in any marathon ever...let alone by a person who finished...
pereneum falcon wrote:
Calm down, dude. No one is calling AC a 'pussy.' And, while Deena did run an awesome (ie smart and tough) race for the bronze, I wouldn't necessarily call her effort 'courageous'. Mayeroff made a good point- AC has nothing to lose in this race, so why not change it up a little and try to hang on for as long as possible? No one is knocking the guy, just suggesting that he might need to change up the tactics a bit if he hopes to challenge for the win in Boston. Obviously, though, he knows what works best for himself. It will be interesting to see how things develop, especially with regard to how Meb's and AC's raceday strategies differ...
Mayeroff doesn't know jack, he's a glorified hack who's full of himself. He knows nothing of Culpepper's world, at best he's only glimpsed the fringes of it from afar. He's way too narcissistic to have the capacity to sympathize or put himself in Culpepper's shoes.
I do not remember the specifics, but in Athens, the pace over the last 7.2km was pretty close to 4:30, which is VERY fast.
trhamon wrote:
track dude wrote:...when the pace explodes to a 4:20 at say mile 22, as it often happens in the big races...
Ummmmm....how often is that? Can't say I can quite pin down an instance when a 4:20 was dropped in any marathon ever...let alone by a person who finished...
26mi235 wrote:
I do not remember the specifics, but in Athens, the pace over the last 7.2km was pretty close to 4:30, which is VERY fast.
Remember that Athens drops sharply toward the end. I know Boston drops toward the end as well, but not nearly as much as Athens.
Well I can say this, I would give my left nut and both of my thumbs to have the career and longetivity that Culpeppar has head.
But one thing that always struck me was his race strategy alwasy have seemed to go out in the mid-pack, lay low, and move up late to take the next best position.
It has seemed to work well for him. And to give him credit didn't he win a cross country nationals a couple years ago against Meb and Abdi?
He's had a hell of a career. He's making a living as fulltime professional runner. Maybe he's the Mark Martin Nascar version of runners. He was a 3:50 1500 runner in HS, won an NCAA 5000 title, made two Olympic teams, ran in at least 2 World Championship 10,000's.
So he doesn't win all the US championship road titles like Dan Brown did a couple years ago. Still I would rank Culpeppars career higher.
Except that his name is Culpepper.
Sorry. Drinking. I'm going to bed now.
Stewed Prune wrote:
I was more refering more to Pre than to that guy with the whole comet thing. We still talk about him (PRE) because he went for it. Not because he was the most talented guy ever to come along.
Thanks for the info though.
I don't think the rest of the world holds PRE in such god like reverence as we do here.
We remember Pre because he was one of our last badasses that could mix it up with the best in the world on any given day. Quit worshiping Pre. If he was in a race with Kenny Bekele, he'd either let him go early or blow up after 3k. Sometimes, you just ain't going to be in the race no matter how hard you try.
Baldini ran the final miles at 4:38/mile in Athens, which is a ways from 4:30 and a VERY long way from 4:20. IMHO
Actually, I was being generous, it was 4:38.7 for the final 2km and 4:39.9 for the previous 10k...for what it's worth...
I didnt say anything about worshipping Pre Coach B. I said that alot of runners still talk about Pre quite a bit however many years later why? Well one probably because he died young. But also because we wonder what could have been because he was an American who ran with balls.
Obviously other countries have other heros. It would only make sense.
And quite frankly Kenny Bekele would drop Viren, Gammoudi and whomever came in thrid (?) just as easliy. Based solely on the times.
What I'm saying is that I think Culpepper could hang with the elite field in Boston. Its just not that good. But I wonder if he will.
KnowItAll wrote:
So when Deena doesn't go with the leaders, and ends up coming from behind and getting a bronze medal, that's courageous and awesome. But when Culpepper does the same thing and gets 4th in Boston, he's being a pussy?
Doesn't Catherine the Great usually let the leaders go early in the race and then come from behind and beat them?
Some people, that's just their style.
Some people can do this and win. Deena and Catherine are two of the best women marathoners out there...
Culp is great, too, a 2:09 guy...but there are 2:06 guys in this race...if he lets them get too far in front, they won't falter enough to make a difference. To put another way, the winner usually comes out of the lead pack....but sometimes 3rd-4th place does not.
Stewed Prune wrote:
If an athlete in another sport was known for only caring about his personal stats and not whether he won or lost. The people in this country would eat him alive. Why not in running?
And obviously it's his life. But why have professional athletes if we cant discuss them.
Wrong. You're right in that it's no different then otehr sports, HOWEVER. You're comparign them wrong. It's like a guy who can't hit the ball out of the park...trying to hit a homerun every time and in return HURTING HIS TEAM. Same thing in running. If one tries to do more then they are capable of they do WORSE. Just as in baseball, you have to play within your limits to get yuor max results to give yourself the best CHANCE to win or place as high as possible. You don't get extra points for "trying" which results in failing miserably.
trhamon wrote:
track dude wrote:...when the pace explodes to a 4:20 at say mile 22, as it often happens in the big races...
Ummmmm....how often is that? Can't say I can quite pin down an instance when a 4:20 was dropped in any marathon ever...let alone by a person who finished...
Its happened at Chicago, at least a couple of times.
So señor prune, I presume you've raced more than a few marathons using both tactics: running the best pace you believe you're capable of, and sticking with a faster pack in an effort to run beyond your abilities.
How has that latter strategy worked out for you, then?
Have you surprised yourself, digging deep to find heretofore unexpected reserves of strength in the final miles as you fought through the pain and fatigue? Were you glad to have put some time in the bank in those early and middle miles?
C'mon, stewey, if you truly believe, and you put your balls on the line, you can fly - ignore the naysayers, the nattering naybobs of negativity. Fly away with me! We'll never grow up! We'll fight pirates forever!
slaps wrote:
Well I can say this, I would give my left nut and both of my thumbs to have the career and longetivity that Culpeppar has head.
But one thing that always struck me was his race strategy alwasy have seemed to go out in the mid-pack, lay low, and move up late to take the next best position.
It has seemed to work well for him. And to give him credit didn't he win a cross country nationals a couple years ago against Meb and Abdi?
He's had a hell of a career. He's making a living as fulltime professional runner. Maybe he's the Mark Martin Nascar version of runners. He was a 3:50 1500 runner in HS, won an NCAA 5000 title, made two Olympic teams, ran in at least 2 World Championship 10,000's.
So he doesn't win all the US championship road titles like Dan Brown did a couple years ago. Still I would rank Culpeppars career higher.
I wonder if these tactics spring from running under Wetmore. When I read Buffaloes, didn't he always say the CU team would just go out conservatively and then chew people up in the last 2k? This is certainly an interesting discussion. I'm actually on the fence. I would be happy to see Culp race either way. In the end, I just hope both him and Meb can have great races.
And on the topic of why people like Pre. I love these people that are sucking his ballz because he was a front runner and ran with guts. Isn't that the very thing that Bowerman tried to stop Pre from doing? It was probably Pre's worst characteristic as a runner. Racing tactics are part of distance running. Just because Pre didn't like that aspect of the sport doesn't make him a hero. The fact that he as a badass runner is what made him famous. His front running was just stupid.
Straight from the horse's mouth:
MR: In recent years, a lot of top American runners have bypassed Boston in favor of chasing fast times at other marathons. This is your second-straight go around at Boston. Why come back rather than go to, say, London?
AC: That’s a good question. Basically, I came out of Chicago last fall disappointed with my time and just how I felt during the race in general. A lot of that had to do with worrying about the pace and I decided afterwards to head in a direction where I just wanted to compete rather than chase time. Boston will be a good opportunity to do that. I do well in situations such as the Olympics, the Trials, or a national championship race when it’s just a matter of competing against the people in front of you. I’d rather race than worry about hitting splits.
Look, some people feel that going from the gun to the lead is going to result in the best possible finish. Other people think that comming from behind is the way to go. I think he's accomplished more than any of us on this board and as such we should pay him the respect, which is due. I think that so far pretty much all the posts have done it. Maybe we want to see him go for it and fall apart. However, I feel that I'd rather watch him run the race he thinks will get him to the finish first, which is the race we're going to see because its the race we're always going to see because he always puts it all on the line to finish as high as possible. Maybe putting it all on the line isn't pulling a Brian Snell in the US Trials. But the guy always shows up and 9 times out of 10 he runs as good as his training and talent allows, which is awesome.
Stewed Prune wrote:
What I'm saying is that I think Culpepper could hang with the elite field in Boston. Its just not that good. But I wonder if he will.
Except when one recalls that you don't have the first clue about what goes through Culpepper's mind or what it takes to compete at his level, your speculations are revealed for the completely uninformed, irrelevant ramblings they are.
No doubt you coast through life blissfully believing that your thoughts on this matter have value. They don't, of course, but that fact will never enter your little head.
So speculate on my internet friend! Share with us more of your keen insights into the world of elite racing!
Daddy,
Tone it down. The boards are for debate. We are debating whether Culpepper is a front runner who shows up to race. Very reasonable and simple question. The fact remains that in the last five years and in his last five marathons, Culpepper DID NOT sit in at the front and run with the leaders. Who knows why he doesn't run up front(we can speculate that he thinks he can run conservatively and sneak back into the race over the last three or four miles -- fine), but the fact remains, he does not run with the leaders during the key miles of the race 15- 24.
So you being angry that some people here on board act like they know what Culpepper is thinking -- yadda yadda yadda -- is not true. All that people are saying is, "Culpepper, RUN UP FRONT!" Who knows, he might discover something about himself that he doesn't know -- like, "hey, this really fuc**&*g hurts, but I CAN DO THIS." Remember, nobody runs 2:05:00 at Boston. It will be won in 2:08-2:10. He can run this fast.
Why show up and time trial 200-400m behind the lead back. Seems like a waste of time to him. I agree with Mayeroff -- GO FOR IT! I have run by many many many Kenyans who are walking from 22-26 over the years at major marathons and I always think, "damb, these guys play for keeps." I would love to see Culpepper running with the leaders over heartbreak and than walking (if he has to) through Kenmore. Then, we would all know, he meant business.
[quote]Daddy wrote:
So speculate on my internet friend! quote]
Who is your internet friend? And why do you want Prune to speculate on him?