While the competition at 5,000 and 10,000 on the track is tough, it's ridiculous in the marathon. If everything falls right, an American could medal in the above events because there are only 3 Ethiopians/Kenyans to compete with. In a major marathon, there are dozens of Africans. One American, even the best one, has virtually no chance. Rupp, who was the best American marathoner for a long time, never ran London or Berlin where he would be facing many African runners.
In France despite poor results in the 5k/10k the step towards sub2h07 has been made by younger runners focusing on the marathon with the hope of being selected for the Olympics in Paris. Same for women.
There's so little money in American Men's Marathon that those having the talent to run far might as well head into Mountain Ultra Running instead - and they do.
Elite marathon training requires membership in a community of committed distance runners. Really long runs need some sort of social reinforcement to help runners get through the slog, especially younger folks who have a higher need for engagement. Believe it or not, loneliness is tied to depression and depression is tied to injury.
America just doesn't have the social structure to grow sub 2:07 marathoners.
1. To easy to get good money by being among the top US finishers in Boston, NYC, Chicago. If slow times are sufficient to do that, why train your a** off to go faster?
2. Partly related to 1., most US runners only run US races, and only train with the same people at same or two locations. There is little exchange, especially with runners from other nations. For European runners it is much more common to combine training at home with stints in Portugal, Spain, St Moritz, Kenya, etc. Each time you will meet new people and possibly train with them. Some of the guys you meet will be pretty fast (especially when you're in Kenya), which might encourage or motivate you to work harder or make better choices regarding recovery or nutrition. Just look at some of the training videos from Kenya, you have Tadese Abraham, Amanal Petros, Emile Cairess and a bunch of fast Kenyans training together. In the US you have Mantz and Young training together and every other "fast" guy is training without real "competition". You can only get so far if you're the big fish in a small pond.
I'm hoping Klecker decides to move up after this injury. Based on his 5k/10k PBs and his ability to grind out races, I think he would have a shot at the AR in both the half and full distances. Fisher is obviously the best candidate, but it remains to be seen how long he sticks with the track.
people keep saying this on the board and honestly best of luck to him but he's a bigger guy who has the propensity to run himself into the ground and seems to be allergic to running over 6 min pace. maybe it will go okay but i think there's a real chance it does not.
They’re running the same marathon times that American men we’re running 50 years ago without super shoes and with much slower 5k and 10k PRs. I don’t get it
I’ll take a crack at this answer, but I could be wrong. My guess is that our diets have collectively become much worse, that said I would imagine elite athletes would eat the healthiest possible food.
Also many athletes used to really hammer their training, with extremely high volume and constant racing being a part of training. Many present day athletes train to get maximum benefits without risking injury, however cross training should eliminate those gaps.
Finally, I hate to say it like this but people were just tougher a while back. Life itself was harder. The average person was not as wealthy as they are now. It’s possible that maybe people were willing to push harder because of this.
One final point is that while training has become optimized, the methods for catching drug cheaters have become better. It is possible that many of our top runners in 1960-2000 were on serious pharmacological programs and were never caught. So the stagnation might be the offsetting of training getter better and drug use being easier to detect.
They’re running the same marathon times that American men were running 50 years ago without super shoes and with much slower 5k and 10k PRs. I don’t get it
I believe the answer lies in the earlier years of an athletes development and which country they grew up in. Which countries primarily dominate the marathon? Kenya and Ethiopia. Why is that? If we put any performance enhancing drugs to the side for the moment, most young kid athletes in these countries run incredibly long distances as part of their day to day routine - just getting to and from school etc. So when it comes time to actual training/competing they are naturally accustomed and primed to compete over the longer distances. The number of Kenyan/Ethiopian runners in the middle distance events is a lot less and for the sprints less world elite athletes than you could count on your hand. For US and European kid athletes however they usually get into running by competing over shorter events and are essentially primed for those distances - 100m, 200m, 400m up to 1500/3km in their younger years and a lot of them stay there. A few will step up to the 5km, a few less up to the the 10km and then just a minute number will go for the marathon.
This post was edited 3 minutes after it was posted.
I'm hoping Klecker decides to move up after this injury. Based on his 5k/10k PBs and his ability to grind out races, I think he would have a shot at the AR in both the half and full distances. Fisher is obviously the best candidate, but it remains to be seen how long he sticks with the track.
Definitely in the half; it’s a bit of a “soft” record and many pros would be able to break it if they tried.
One challenge though (and why it’s not a faster record) is that there aren’t many good half marathons in the US. After Houston it’s slim pickings
I've started threads on this related to the half marathon American record but the top American men don't seem interested at all in taking a swipe at distances longer than the 10k despite being in great shape during the peak of their career. I love to see women like Weini Kelati and Sifan Hassan try a variety of distances and go for records. For some reason, the men just don't seem interested in racing up in distance during the early or late parts of the season. The top men just seem interested in running 4 races a year, all in very controlled conditions for times or championships.
even Rupp waited too long. The Rupp that ran 26:44 would have been regularly under 2:05
This. The main reason is money. Great East Africans cannot make any money in the 5k/10k. No 13 low Kenyan is getting any appearance fees or big shoe deals on the track. Yet in the marathon they can start collecting respectable prize money at a very young age by running 2:09 marathons.
Imagine if Nico Young started running the marathon right now. He's almost 6 years younger than Mantz and could probably beat Mantz right now in a marathon with only a couple of months of marathon specific training.
But he doesn't need to run a marathon because he's doing fine with his NIL deal as is.
Our top marathoners have never even broke 27:20 on the track. Heck Calyton Young has never even come close to 28! Its simple, our best guys don't run the marathon at the moment.
Best talents are not running marathon. It's not like with Africans with overflowing depth that some move up to marathon for the $.
This. Mantz is the first champion type runner to go to the marathon in his prime years since Rupp did, and Rupp was the first since Meb and Hall did, maybe throw in Ritz and Culpepper as well. It's the exception that proves the rule. The rest are okay runners who find opportunity in the event talent pool void, those folks are probably overfunded.
Meb made his marathon debut at ~28 years old. He had success on the track starting in 1996. He ran his 10,000m PB in 2001 in 27:13, after 5 years in the event. His marathon debut was in 2003. So he is not comparable to any of the current guys, even Mantz, because he was quite successfull on the track internationally.
Ryan Hall made his marathon debut at ~25 years old. He had a track PB of 13:16. So Ryan Hall and Connor Mantz had similar decent success on the track but turned to the marathon fairly early for an American (but still late for an African). But the best marathon runners of ages ago were elite world competitors on the track. With the exception of Rupp our best guys stay on the track for a very long time, until well outside their prime. Hall and Mantz are good, but it wouldn't be like Nico or Fisher switching to the marathon.
I agree about needing social reinforcement to help get through the slog. I only do 80 minute long runs, but I do them solo and it absolutely sucks. I can't imagine being out there for two or more hours alone
- College system has people focusing on 15-10k early on. Compare to Japan where college runners are doing longer road races.
- The gap to being competitive in the marathon is huge, which is de-motivating for the guys who could have a shot. If I'm Grant Fisher I haven't seen an American run within 6 minutes of the world record in years, but i'm already within a second or two of a track medal on multiple occasions.
- No culture of marathon success in a long time. Success breeds success - which has helped the 15-10k guys be more competitive. E.g., Grant Fisher took a leap in crushing American Records and finishing just outside the medals, and then got beat by Klecker, Kincaid. etc. And now everyone thinks they could medal at the global stage and are pushing each other to be better. Not so for the marathon.
- The reasons above all lead to people not moving up early enough (And I agree that Klecker should absolutely try the marathon asap).
- There are probably some training- (and maybe nutrition-) related reasons, but i suspect the social/psychological factors are more important.
Ethiopians on their letssprint site are laughing at you.
Are Ethiopians in Ethiopia concerned about lack of sub-10.3 100m guys?
USA. All the talent, 100m to 800m plus jumps & throws. All the money goes to 5000m to Marathon development.
Were Ethiopians running 9.97 at one point? Did they then stop? No, their national record at the 100 is nowhere close to the point value for a 2:07 marathon. It is very curious, but I think the marathon has become devalued by all the 26.2 magnets and stuff.
Didn’t the 10k WR holder try a marthon last year and only run 2:08? I think a lot of the reason other countries improve so much at the marathon is doping. Americans are tested much more frequently. Also I think there have been a lot of great 5k/10k runners try their hand at the marathon and it’s just a different beast. I have a few training partners that smoke me at anything less than a half marathon, but we hit 19 miles and they just can’t hold on anymore.
They’re running the same marathon times that American men we’re running 50 years ago without super shoes and with much slower 5k and 10k PRs. I don’t get it
It's simple - a vast majority of these 5k/10k runners should have been on the roads doing halves and marathons from the start. Most are never going to be fast enough to be competitive on the track globally, and not even nationally. We have sub 2:07 talent, but they are wasting precious development years trying to crack 13:10. I blame it on the collegiate system and an overall lack of financial and Olympic development support for distance runners.
Oh and remember those pure slow twitch guys on your team who had one gear and were immediately marked as distance runners? They don't ever make it anymore on the global stage, not even in the marathon. We still have these kinds of athletes making it to 5k and 10k nationals in the NCAA... our system is preventing runners from being matched to their optimal distances.
Didn’t the 10k WR holder try a marthon last year and only run 2:08? I think a lot of the reason other countries improve so much at the marathon is doping. Americans are tested much more frequently. Also I think there have been a lot of great 5k/10k runners try their hand at the marathon and it’s just a different beast. I have a few training partners that smoke me at anything less than a half marathon, but we hit 19 miles and they just can’t hold on anymore.
Nope, we just don't have any meaningful depth of talent running the marathon. It takes time to figure out the marathon, but yes many fast 10k track guys should be moving up eventually as they need to be comfortable running a blistering pace. The marathon is a different tactical game where it's not as meaningful to be able to drop a last 400 in low 50s. How many American men can even drop a sub 54 last 400 in the 5k off a demanding pace? If they weren't wasting their time on the track they could be at best 2:08/9 marathoners, like the Japanese. Instead they'll fart around on the track for many precious years and by the time they move up they'll be lucky if they can ever crack 2:10.
This post was edited 5 minutes after it was posted.