I remember hearing in an interview somewhere that Meb Keflezighi would do HEAVY deadlifts, but drop the weight at the top instead of lowering it back to the ground. Took this approach to build the strength and reap the efficiency gains without putting on muscle. As on the way down, you're tearing the muscle fibers which is the stimulus for hypertrophy whereas on the way up you get the strength stimulus without the hypertrophy stimulus.
Good to hear that even Meb subscribes to some bro science.
The marathon is 99% aerobic. Injury prevention aside, spending time and effort maximizing that 1% is essentially inconsequential to your finishing time.
You don’t like a 2-6% improvement in running economy is going to change your marathon time? I got to disagree…..
have no clue why you think the % of the marathon being aerobic has anything to do with why someone lifts…
You're making the false assumption that heavy lifting will automatically improve Running Economy.
It can of course, but Running Economy is a double edged sword when it comes to lifting heavy as you can also make your Running Economy worse!
For example, if one bulks up the quads a ton that can hurt Running Economy (especially for a long distance race like a relatively flat road marathon).
The reasons to lift are mainly for 1. Injury prevention (especially if you have had some sort of imbalance or over-use injury caused by specific weakness that needs to be addressed) and/or 2. To boost natural testosterone levels/metabolism. 3. to stimulate fast twitch muscle fibers.
Yes, you can improve stride/power with certain specific lifts (which can improve Running Economy).....but remember you can also hurt your Running Economy by bulking up in the wrong areas! This isn't a simple: "to lift or not to lift"
For example, if one bulks up the quads a ton that can hurt Running Economy (especially for a long distance race like a relatively flat road marathon).
Largely agree with Sage. However, I think "bulking up" is an insanely overblown fear for 99% of distance runners. In all my life, I've known one guy who was a genetic freak and could easily gain muscle mass while distance running. It's very, very hard to do. You have to be in a caloric surplus and have the energy to get a hypertrophic stimulus. I've become very, very strong without gaining more than a pound or two.
This is the equivalent to a classic gym bro thinking jogging a few miles here and there will turn him into a stick of a human.
Do half-squats instead. How beneficial are full, ass-to-grass, squats for running?
Think about your typical running gait. You’re not going to exceed the range of motion of a half-squat, so why go further? It’s counter-productive towards your activity.
if anyone gives you crap about half-squatting at the gym, remind them that they only do 10 minutes of cardio every other day.
Just to clear up some things instead of making this binary/black and white: There is a time and place for quarter and "full" (just below parallel, not "ass to grass") squats.
"Full" squats are for overall strength - they hit the most muscle mass over the longest effective range of motion (ROM). You want to overall build strength to make your body as resilient/strong as possible while developing your muscle's ability to produce force.
Quarter squats have shown to be beneficial for improving spring times since the ROM is more sport specific. But be warned you risk building more muscle imbalances as they are heavily quad dominant and hardly hit the hamstrings while really loading up the knees.
Just like doing standard running training, periodization is key. Before you start trying to hit those heavy quarter squats (especially for novice lifters), do a block of regular full ROM squats to build full body strength, then incorporate half squats - to make it easy, switch off between every session. Don't let ego lifting brain take over by jumping into doing quarter squats first as you chase "big" numbers (no serious lifter is going to be remotely impressed or take you seriously by your 200 lbs. quarter squat) and opting for the easier lift (which, frankly, it is).
Just to clear up some things instead of making this binary/black and white: There is a time and place for quarter and "full" (just below parallel, not "ass to grass") squats.
"Full" squats are for overall strength - they hit the most muscle mass over the longest effective range of motion (ROM). You want to overall build strength to make your body as resilient/strong as possible while developing your muscle's ability to produce force.
Quarter squats have shown to be beneficial for improving spring times since the ROM is more sport specific. But be warned you risk building more muscle imbalances as they are heavily quad dominant and hardly hit the hamstrings while really loading up the knees.
Just like doing standard running training, periodization is key. Before you start trying to hit those heavy quarter squats (especially for novice lifters), do a block of regular full ROM squats to build full body strength, then incorporate half squats - to make it easy, switch off between every session. Don't let ego lifting brain take over by jumping into doing quarter squats first as you chase "big" numbers (no serious lifter is going to be remotely impressed or take you seriously by your 200 lbs. quarter squat) and opting for the easier lift (which, frankly, it is).
^ this guy lifts for sport
Yes, the binary that people pretend exists is insane. Strength training can be just as complicated as running training. It's insane and unbecoming to write it all off.
You don’t like a 2-6% improvement in running economy is going to change your marathon time? I got to disagree…..
have no clue why you think the % of the marathon being aerobic has anything to do with why someone lifts…
You're making the false assumption that heavy lifting will automatically improve Running Economy.
It can of course, but Running Economy is a double edged sword when it comes to lifting heavy as you can also make your Running Economy worse!
For example, if one bulks up the quads a ton that can hurt Running Economy (especially for a long distance race like a relatively flat road marathon).
The reasons to lift are mainly for 1. Injury prevention (especially if you have had some sort of imbalance or over-use injury caused by specific weakness that needs to be addressed) and/or 2. To boost natural testosterone levels/metabolism. 3. to stimulate fast twitch muscle fibers.
Yes, you can improve stride/power with certain specific lifts (which can improve Running Economy).....but remember you can also hurt your Running Economy by bulking up in the wrong areas! This isn't a simple: "to lift or not to lift"
Runners are always afraid of "bulking up." Thats why you see so many runners avoiding doing things that will actually help them with running and instead pursue practices that actually make them worse off in the long run, such as disordered eating.
NEWS FLASH - It is way harder than you think to gain mass, which is why is such a prevalent topic is body building/strength training spaces. You only start bulking up when you create a caloric surplus, which is already going to be hard to do if you're running a bunch. Runners should just chase "noobie" strength gains and leave it that as that will be more than beneficial. No need to go all in and chase those extra incremental pounds once they've plateaued.
Also, a couple of misconceptions - 1.) "Boost natural metabolism" - If you're training adequately, you're metabolism is already working overtime. Worrying about it is the gateway to disordered eating, an endemic problem in this sport that somehow still doesn't get the attention it deserves. I've been around this sport long enough to see this first hand over and over again. This is issue is a hill I will die on. 2.) While gains to the "fast twitch" muscles are made through lifting, it's not going to be as much as you think since sprint work should already have developed these fibers to a large extent. The real benefits are coming from developments in your central nervous system, which is strained when doing actual maximal heavy lifting (ranges between 1-5 reps), best through heavy compound lifts (squat/deadlift/bench/overhead press) or olympic lifts (cleans/snatch and their variations).
I'm a 2:45 marathon runner and can squat 205lb for 5 sets of 5. I'm wondering how beneficial to my marathon fitness squatting/deadlifting heavy will be. I know it can help prevent injury, improve power and speed, running economy, etc, but what I don't have is a rough idea of how beneficial it will likely be. As in, I could be convinced by the argument "it's great, since you haven't squatted much it could be key to levelling up you marathon performance" or "it may make some difference, but likely not much, and if your goal is just the marathon you'd be better off spending the time recovering". Can anyone give me insight on this?
Here’s some insight: you are a hobby jogger, over 25% off of the world record or even a sub-elite performance.
No marathon record holder has ever made heavy squats a major part of their training. Ever.
Wonder if he will come back. Will be doping again (some people can't help themselves). Or will he find some other way to grift and defraud people of money.
This post was edited 11 seconds after it was posted.
I'm a 2:45 marathon runner and can squat 205lb for 5 sets of 5. I'm wondering how beneficial to my marathon fitness squatting/deadlifting heavy will be. I know it can help prevent injury, improve power and speed, running economy, etc, but what I don't have is a rough idea of how beneficial it will likely be. As in, I could be convinced by the argument "it's great, since you haven't squatted much it could be key to levelling up you marathon performance" or "it may make some difference, but likely not much, and if your goal is just the marathon you'd be better off spending the time recovering". Can anyone give me insight on this?
Here’s some insight: you are a hobby jogger, over 25% off of the world record or even a sub-elite performance.
No marathon record holder has ever made heavy squats a major part of their training. Ever.
And that Mo Farrah lifted weights in no way proves that it helped performance.
There are 100s of Kenyans and Ethiopians with faster marathon times who have never put a weighted bar on their backs.
I came to distance running with a weight training background. I still get beat in my age group by skinny little men who couldn’t budge weights I play with.
Do half-squats instead. How beneficial are full, ass-to-grass, squats for running?
Think about your typical running gait. You’re not going to exceed the range of motion of a half-squat, so why go further? It’s counter-productive towards your activity.
if anyone gives you crap about half-squatting at the gym, remind them that they only do 10 minutes of cardio every other day.
So that you stay firmly within the “easy” muscular range? As in not using some muscles to fight the lack of flexibility of the opposing side?
For example, if one bulks up the quads a ton that can hurt Running Economy (especially for a long distance race like a relatively flat road marathon).
Largely agree with Sage. However, I think "bulking up" is an insanely overblown fear for 99% of distance runners. In all my life, I've known one guy who was a genetic freak and could easily gain muscle mass while distance running. It's very, very hard to do. You have to be in a caloric surplus and have the energy to get a hypertrophic stimulus. I've become very, very strong without gaining more than a pound or two.
This is the equivalent to a classic gym bro thinking jogging a few miles here and there will turn him into a stick of a human.
I can assure you that I personally can "bulk up" quite easily while distance running if I start lifting a considerable amount. We used to have a joke in college that when my bench press PR went up, my 5km PR suffered.
Others can gain muscle mass quite easily as well. You start lifting a lot (and just eat enough!) and there can be a noticeable increase in muscle mass. I'm not talking about 20lbs....I'm talking about like 2-5 lbs. Not hard for me to do on 80-100 miles a week. This is not rocket science or "gym bro thinking"....it's basic human physiology.
My main point is that not all weight lifting is going to even help Running Economy (and that it can actually hurt Running Economy). We're distance runners....not sprinters.
If anything the common "gym bro thinking" misconception (and a lot of the attitude for hobby joggers) is thinking that lifting weights is going to be this huge factor/magical pill that improves their distance running performance by a ton.....
I used to but heads with my strength coaches all the time trying to explain that the long distance runners didn’t need heavy squats.
I think the risk/ reward is something to consider and if there is lower hanging fruit elsewhere. It sounds like you are an experienced lifter but the chances of you tweaking your back or hamstring while lifting heavy squats and deadlifts are fairly high.
Runners should be strong and always trying to get stronger but other exercises can be used.
Also you are running 6:20- 6:30 pace. There are a lot of ways to drop your time. Body comp, more volume, harder workouts, diet, core strength etc.
Now if you like heavy squats, great enjoy yourself but it’s not going to help your running much.
If we're talking about how "the best" do it, a pretty easy Google search shows the the BYU crew include lifting. I'd trust them and Ed over most people in this thread.
A problem regular people run into is that they don't have the same time to run as much as the pros and they aren't as genetically gifted. If you're a pro running 120+ miles a week with good sessions and limited injuries. Of course they won't need to strength train as much as hobby jogger joe running 60 miles a week for a sub 3 hour marathon. But if hobby jogger joe wants to maximize his potential while reducing injury risk, a few compound lifts will greatly maximize his running potential. The problem with a lot of runners who try lifting is they fall into the trap to lift like bodybuilders do, rather or not they know it. You don't need to do a million different exercises to properly strengthen your muscles. The research on lifting and volume shows that more than 6 sets per muscle group per session gives diminishing returns and hitting the muscle multiple times a week for a total of 20 sets or more throughout the week gives better results than the bro split. So what could this look like for a runner while reducing the risk of taking away from running volume/quality? As easy as 3 sets for the legs per day (I prefer alternating between a hip hinge movement and squatting movement) and 3 sets of some kind of pulling motion (pull ups or chin ups for runners) and some kind of pushing movement(dips or push ups for runners). Not only will this reduce the risk of DOMS affecting training. This will improve overall health and reduce the risk you get injured especially if you have to pickup something heavy in day to day life. Personally how I do it is on days I do harder sessions I'll do a few sets of squats afterwards and a few upper body exercises involving some sort of leg drive like the push press and chin ups, and days in-between I do a few kettlebell swings for the hip hinge aspect and do a few pull ups and dips.
Yeah those BYU athletes are running 90 seconds fast per mile than the OP on their tempos, and race pace is 2+ mins faster per mile.
My argument was at 6:20-6:30 pace for a marathon, squats are going to do anything other than risk a lifting injury.
And before anyone chimes in that squats and dead lifts reduce injuries, go talk to a PT and see how many people injure themselves in the weight room. There are other ways to get strong.
It's not 2-5 Ibs of muscle, more than likely just increase fluid retention to the muscles from the inflammation caused by training. Personally my weight will fluctuate by 2-5 pounds throughout the day depending on hydration, my carb intake for the day and if I took a bowel movement yet. If anything thinking your 5k suffered because you bench pressed is silly cause for most college level runners they're benching less than what their body is pushing during a bodyweight push up or dip. If you think doing some push ups or dips will slow you down, that's just the runner equivalent of bro science.
If you arent a full time runner (pro, HS, college) the time you are spending playing with weights would be better used doing about any thing else related to running.
running more miles
running hill reps
running tempo
Nobody is saying lifting is useless, but it is the bottom priority.
Yeah those BYU athletes are running 90 seconds fast per mile than the OP on their tempos, and race pace is 2+ mins faster per mile.
My argument was at 6:20-6:30 pace for a marathon, squats are going to do anything other than risk a lifting injury.
And before anyone chimes in that squats and dead lifts reduce injuries, go talk to a PT and see how many people injure themselves in the weight room. There are other ways to get strong.
Now go ask that PT how many people he sees for lifting injuries vs running injuries. Now go see a high quality running-focused PT and ask them about lifting weights.
Lifting is safer than distance running across the board. If you're at serious risk from hurting yourself from squatting modest weight, you're going to hurt yourself one way or another because it's a fundamental movement.