Would you rather plumber's hand check you just one at a time?
Or
An entire league comprised of individuals who've been playing basketball since they were 4-5 years old, while being much MUCH superior athletes?
I know one sounds more impressive to me
Where do you get the “much superior athlete” nonsense. Having watched both eras. There’s no difference in athleticism. None whatsoever.
Jokic, Doncic, Curry, SGA, aren't known for their athleticism yet are among the best players today. The "much superior athlete" mantra is definitely overused.
Would you rather plumber's hand check you just one at a time?
Or
An entire league comprised of individuals who've been playing basketball since they were 4-5 years old, while being much MUCH superior athletes?
I know one sounds more impressive to me
Where do you get the “much superior athlete” nonsense. Having watched both eras. There’s no difference in athleticism. None whatsoever.
Okay do you want me to use running as an example? Don't be obtuse.
Actually you know what. Show me one player from the '80s or '70s or 90s whatever that has a prime lasting as long as LeBron's?
You do realize in the '80s the NBA was damn near all cokeheads that smoked cigs after the game lol
Meanwhile we got 6'11 giannis taking 4 steps to cross the entire court moving like a guard lol. In the '80s and '90s a guy of that size would have his back to the back basket in the paint. Some of you guys either only watch basketball in the '80s/90s are you guys never actually played real basketball.
We have wemby at 7'4 shooting step back threes lol stop
Where do you get the “much superior athlete” nonsense. Having watched both eras. There’s no difference in athleticism. None whatsoever.
Jokic, Doncic, Curry, SGA, aren't known for their athleticism yet are among the best players today. The "much superior athlete" mantra is definitely overused.
Players now are more skilled too for sure. That is probably the easiest way to make. So even when you cherry pick the ones that aren't super athletic they are almost certainly more skilled than their previous counterparts
Jokic, Doncic, Curry, SGA, aren't known for their athleticism yet are among the best players today. The "much superior athlete" mantra is definitely overused.
Players now are more skilled too for sure. That is probably the easiest way to make. So even when you cherry pick the ones that aren't super athletic they are almost certainly more skilled than their previous counterparts
I'd agree with this. But my cherry picked athletes are all stars suggesting that you don't have to be super athletic to be great.
Jokic, Doncic, Curry, SGA, aren't known for their athleticism yet are among the best players today. The "much superior athlete" mantra is definitely overused.
Players now are more skilled too for sure. That is probably the easiest way to make. So even when you cherry pick the ones that aren't super athletic they are almost certainly more skilled than their previous counterparts
Are you 14 years old. You’re talking out of your a$$
Okay do you want me to use running as an example? Don't be obtuse.
Actually you know what. Show me one player from the '80s or '70s or 90s whatever that has a prime lasting as long as LeBron's?
You do realize in the '80s the NBA was damn near all cokeheads that smoked cigs after the game lol
Meanwhile we got 6'11 giannis taking 4 steps to cross the entire court moving like a guard lol. In the '80s and '90s a guy of that size would have his back to the back basket in the paint. Some of you guys either only watch basketball in the '80s/90s are you guys never actually played real basketball.
We have wemby at 7'4 shooting step back threes lol stop
Your post is all over the place. If you want to bring track & field into it, consider that the last two 100-meter world championships were won in 9.86 and 9.83. World championships in the 1990s were won in 9.86 and 9.80. Four of the top six high jumps of all time were achieved in the 1980s and 1990s.
On the basketball court, there were plenty of uber athletic players in the 1980s and 1990s when Jordan played: Dr. J Julius Erving, the Showtime Lakers, Dominique Wilkins, Clyde The Glide Drexler, Charles Barkley (before he got fat), Shawn Kemp, and many others. Even a 5-6 dude had major hops back then (Spud Webb).
Unlike LeBron, Jordan also had to play during the most dominant big man era. He had to contend with peak Olajuwon, Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, and Mourning (all those guys would destroy Wembanyama just like Embiid did recently). Plus major enforcers like those on the Bad Boy Pistons who would clobber Jordan on drives to the basket. Stars today barely get touched and they’re at the free throw line.
Okay one foot just past the line. Still far more impressive than a dunk contest dunk and he landed out of bounds lol.
And don't even get me started on who is a better driver that is no competition. LeBron is quite literally the greatest driver ever. Look at his field goal percentage.
But since you wanna overhype this free throw dunk with no dribbling or defense being played. You'll be happy to know it's so easy that giannis and Aaron gordon also did it in game with defense and through traffic. Zach LaVine not only could dunk from free throw he's done a 360 free throw dunk and a windmill free throw dunk. You want to keep focusing on this making it seem even less impressive? Honestly I am pretty sure Zach LaVine did it in high school I just don't have the time to look for it.
LeBron is actually a better three-point shooter than Jordan too. I would only give Jordan mid-range shooting over LeBron.
LeBron is definitively better at passing, shooting, layups, dunks, a more capable defender, and clearly a better rebounder. So what is Michael Jordan better at?
LeBron can do his signature free throw dunk in a game with actual defense being played on him lol. What are we even comparing?
Then there is the blatant fact that it was much easier to make the NBA in the '80s and the '90s due to expansion teams. A lot of the guys Jordan played against were on brand new teams with no history culture or traditions. Yeah 6-6 against who? How many other guards even had 45 in+ verticals to guard him? Jordan was way before his time.
Another think people don't talk about is how Michael Jordan simultaneously is the best defender but played with Dennis rodman and Scottie pippen. Two players definitely better than him at defense lol. Make it all make sense while you're stuck on that uncontested free throw dunk.
Signed - westsouthrunner the best hooper on these boards by far 😂
You’re totally missing the point Honest Mike was making when he first listed the free throw line dunk among the iconic facets of Jordan’s career and legacy. It’s not that he’s the only player who could do that (Dr. J did it like 12 years prior, for one), it’s that a generation of fans grew up seeing that dunk in slow-mo on TV or on wall posters, and Jordan for whatever reason looked cooler doing it than Lebron (or Brent Barry) ever could. It’s just one small part of the Jordan legend, and fairly or not the legend/narrative/branding/aura around Michael Jordan are such that for many people it’s just impossible for Lebron to supplant him as “the greatest,” no matter what he achieves.
I for one think Jordan was a lot cooler, more likable, exciting and fun to watch. I also think Lebron is the overall more impactful player, and I largely agree with the OP’s analysis.
Wilt's first season was at age 23; Bron's was at 18. If Wilt could have entered from HS like Bron, Wilt's numbers would be much higher, similar with Kareem (age 22): both way above 40,000 points. Jordan also had that foolish stint in baseball.
Bill Russell was a top 7 high jumper in the world. Name an Olympic sport that Bron or Jordan could have made a team in. Russell and Chamberlain were probably the two best athletes.
Bron has more career points, rebounds, and assists than MJ, right? Wilt is the only player to lead the NBA in scoring, rebounding, and assists (not in the same season). Bron has led the NBA in scoring and assists, right? Both pretty complete players, not just scoring.
All that said, maybe compare the 10 best seasons???
1. It is impossible to compare statistics across eras, only within them. So you can look at which had the better stats relative to their peers, but head-to-head stats comparisons aren't useful. That said, it's still close which was more dominant statistically within his era (and it's worth noting that Lebron's career has really spanned really two eras of the modern game). Strong arguments for either.
2. I'm still with Jordan for the greatest player of all time, but sure, I can concede that Lebron has had the greater career. It's just so much longer (5 full seasons worth of games), and that counts.
3. Peak Jordan is still the greatest player for me. 6 consecutive titles sandwiched around playing professional baseball. I followed the careers of both. It's close, but I'm still with Jordan. But I'm not going to fight anyone who says Lebron. Easy to make that case too.
Compare him to Jordan and the two are very similar. Their advanced stats in their best seasons are almost identical. If anything MJ is slightly higher in the regular season and Lebron is slightly higher in the playoffs, the opposite of what is usually assumed. But this could be a sample-size issue, or the recent trend of stars taking it easy during the regular season. Either way, they are very, very close.
They've won in different ways. Lebron was the master at taking his teams to the Finals, MJ had fewer Finals trips, but was the best at winning once there. MJ played (almost) his entire career for one team, which in the later seasons had lot of other stars playing cohesive roles. They were good without him, but Jordan lifted these teams to be some of the best of all time.
Lebron played on several different teams, most poorly constructed and/or with fewer other stars. His teams usually fell apart without him, and his biggest skill was to take any team he played for deep into the playoffs. He probably had a bigger impact on his teams, but Jordan's teams reached a higher level.
All of this feels like a wash. You may prefer one or the other, but it's very close. But here's the thing: Lebron has done this in a career that is 30%+ longer than Jordans'.
He has an argument as the greatest young player of all time He has an argument as the greatest peak player of all time He has an argument as the greatest old player of all time
Lebron is the all-time scoring leader, despite not being a pure scorer. He's 4th in assists and 9th in steals despite not being a guard (Jordan is 4th in steals), and 33rd in rebounds despite not being a center. He's way ahead of Jordan on every type of career value stat (some he's way ahead of everyone; Kareem is with him on a couple).
So unless you think Jordan was a WAY better peak player, which is not backed up by any stats, Lebron's longevity should put him over the top. 40,000 points would be the icing on the cake.
I'm going to address this because I am a big LeBron James fan.
In the apples to apples comparison:
Final seasons: Jordan. LeBron is ending his career kind of on a whimper
Attitude: Jordan. Jordan gave Chicago his all... twice (and played a bit for the Wizards and the White Sox). LeBron took a big 3 troupe to South Beach. He did win for Miami and then for Cleveland... but he left for LA. Jordan left once. LeBron can't stay.
Dunk in the hang, in the air, switch-it-up-ness...
Jordan... and it's not even close.
Kids were thinking they were Jordan trying these impossible switch hand dunks...
In fact, in today's kid..whose name do they use whenever shooting anything, even paper in a trash can??
KOBE!!
Lol they do.
I could go into basketball stats but you know those.
But what do kids do that says LeBron??
LeBron is a great player. But even he can't do in the air what Jordan could.
And let's be honest...
Ron Harper (or BJ Armstrong)
Michael Jordan (with help from Steve Kerr)
Scottie Pippen (with Toni Kukoc at times)
Dennis Rodman
Luc Longley (or Bill Cartwright)
You're acting like this was an A roster without Jordan??
Nuance is a huge part of best.. and nobody but Jordan had the intangibles.
Let me chime in. I graduated high school 1996 and played high school ball and AAU.
Jordan not winning outside of Bulls and Phil Jackson is his downfall. For Lebron to win in Miami and most importantly in Cleveland, and if you don’t understand what he did and how he did it, I can’t help. Game respect game. MJ could not win without Phil and Scottie. He couldn’t even make the Finals. I reference Brady. Many of you would say he’s GOAT. Well, Lebron is the closest to Brady winning with two teams and having the all-time records.
We used to play ball 24/7 and we all would quote Jordan fouls or “don’t be Jordan” when hogging the ball. Lebron was basically Magic with more scoring ability and athleticism.
Compare him to Jordan and the two are very similar. Their advanced stats in their best seasons are almost identical. If anything MJ is slightly higher in the regular season and Lebron is slightly higher in the playoffs, the opposite of what is usually assumed. But this could be a sample-size issue, or the recent trend of stars taking it easy during the regular season. Either way, they are very, very close.
They've won in different ways. Lebron was the master at taking his teams to the Finals, MJ had fewer Finals trips, but was the best at winning once there. MJ played (almost) his entire career for one team, which in the later seasons had lot of other stars playing cohesive roles. They were good without him, but Jordan lifted these teams to be some of the best of all time.
Lebron played on several different teams, most poorly constructed and/or with fewer other stars. His teams usually fell apart without him, and his biggest skill was to take any team he played for deep into the playoffs. He probably had a bigger impact on his teams, but Jordan's teams reached a higher level.
All of this feels like a wash. You may prefer one or the other, but it's very close. But here's the thing: Lebron has done this in a career that is 30%+ longer than Jordans'.
He has an argument as the greatest young player of all time He has an argument as the greatest peak player of all time He has an argument as the greatest old player of all time
Lebron is the all-time scoring leader, despite not being a pure scorer. He's 4th in assists and 9th in steals despite not being a guard (Jordan is 4th in steals), and 33rd in rebounds despite not being a center. He's way ahead of Jordan on every type of career value stat (some he's way ahead of everyone; Kareem is with him on a couple).
So unless you think Jordan was a WAY better peak player, which is not backed up by any stats, Lebron's longevity should put him over the top. 40,000 points would be the icing on the cake.
I'm going to address this because I am a big LeBron James fan.
In the apples to apples comparison:
Final seasons: Jordan. LeBron is ending his career kind of on a whimper
Attitude: Jordan. Jordan gave Chicago his all... twice (and played a bit for the Wizards and the White Sox). LeBron took a big 3 troupe to South Beach. He did win for Miami and then for Cleveland... but he left for LA. Jordan left once. LeBron can't stay.
Dunk in the hang, in the air, switch-it-up-ness...
Jordan... and it's not even close.
Kids were thinking they were Jordan trying these impossible switch hand dunks...
In fact, in today's kid..whose name do they use whenever shooting anything, even paper in a trash can??
KOBE!!
Lol they do.
I could go into basketball stats but you know those.
But what do kids do that says LeBron??
LeBron is a great player. But even he can't do in the air what Jordan could.
And let's be honest...
Ron Harper (or BJ Armstrong)
Michael Jordan (with help from Steve Kerr)
Scottie Pippen (with Toni Kukoc at times)
Dennis Rodman
Luc Longley (or Bill Cartwright)
You're acting like this was an A roster without Jordan??
Nuance is a huge part of best.. and nobody but Jordan had the intangibles.
How did the Bulls do the season Jordan left to go play baseball?
I'm going to address this because I am a big LeBron James fan.
In the apples to apples comparison:
Final seasons: Jordan. LeBron is ending his career kind of on a whimper
Attitude: Jordan. Jordan gave Chicago his all... twice (and played a bit for the Wizards and the White Sox). LeBron took a big 3 troupe to South Beach. He did win for Miami and then for Cleveland... but he left for LA. Jordan left once. LeBron can't stay.
Dunk in the hang, in the air, switch-it-up-ness...
Jordan... and it's not even close.
Kids were thinking they were Jordan trying these impossible switch hand dunks...
In fact, in today's kid..whose name do they use whenever shooting anything, even paper in a trash can??
KOBE!!
Lol they do.
I could go into basketball stats but you know those.
But what do kids do that says LeBron??
LeBron is a great player. But even he can't do in the air what Jordan could.
And let's be honest...
Ron Harper (or BJ Armstrong)
Michael Jordan (with help from Steve Kerr)
Scottie Pippen (with Toni Kukoc at times)
Dennis Rodman
Luc Longley (or Bill Cartwright)
You're acting like this was an A roster without Jordan??
Nuance is a huge part of best.. and nobody but Jordan had the intangibles.
How did the Bulls do the season Jordan left to go play baseball?
Made playoffs. Lost to Knicks in conference finals.
That's perfect. Bulls were a B+ team without Jordan...A+ without.
I'm going to address this because I am a big LeBron James fan.
In the apples to apples comparison:
Final seasons: Jordan. LeBron is ending his career kind of on a whimper
Attitude: Jordan. Jordan gave Chicago his all... twice (and played a bit for the Wizards and the White Sox). LeBron took a big 3 troupe to South Beach. He did win for Miami and then for Cleveland... but he left for LA. Jordan left once. LeBron can't stay.
Dunk in the hang, in the air, switch-it-up-ness...
Jordan... and it's not even close.
Kids were thinking they were Jordan trying these impossible switch hand dunks...
In fact, in today's kid..whose name do they use whenever shooting anything, even paper in a trash can??
KOBE!!
Lol they do.
I could go into basketball stats but you know those.
But what do kids do that says LeBron??
LeBron is a great player. But even he can't do in the air what Jordan could.
And let's be honest...
Ron Harper (or BJ Armstrong)
Michael Jordan (with help from Steve Kerr)
Scottie Pippen (with Toni Kukoc at times)
Dennis Rodman
Luc Longley (or Bill Cartwright)
You're acting like this was an A roster without Jordan??
Nuance is a huge part of best.. and nobody but Jordan had the intangibles.
How did the Bulls do the season Jordan left to go play baseball?
Should we address how James cramped his way out of a championship when Jordan practically sealed a championship while playing with a terrible flu?