Rolling stone lists like this are filled with examples where they say somebody who was really popular doing something is amongst the greatest doing it.
Get a load of this: Rolling Stone has Curt Cobain listed as 11th of the "100 Greatest Guitarists of All Time" yet Mark Knoffler (Dire Straits) is ranked 27th, DIckey Betts is ranked 58th, Mick Ronson as 64th, and Eddie Van Halen is 70th, and Johnny Winter as 74th! LOL.
Really, let's face it - Grunge guitar spurned flashy guitar solos and shredding, so that's not what Cobain's playing was about. But even compared to other guitarists in that style, he wasn't that great. It got the job done perfectly well, but wasn't anything special in terms of ability.
I could teach a 15 year old who's never even held a guitar to play Come As You Are in a few hours if that.
There's people who've played for decades that can't play Money for Nothing.
Yes, Knoffler (dire Straits) is a freakin' virtuoso on guitar.
Really, I listen to him all the time, and I'm amazed to hear his back-up guitar work evolve between the lines of his vocals, but taken on their own merit, the guitar work in the background is deserving to be nothing less than an instrumental - they are that good, and they evolve and unfold, and tell their own story.
Chris DeGarmo. From the state of Washington, I would argue that Chris Degarmo was one of the most talented of all musicians in the popular rock format of the mid-80s to mid-90s. As a musician, he was head and shoulders above Kurt Cobain.
I could teach a 15 year old who's never even held a guitar to play Come As You Are in a few hours if that.
There's people who've played for decades that can't play Money for Nothing.
Yes, Knoffler (dire Straits) is a freakin' virtuoso on guitar.
Really, I listen to him all the time, and I'm amazed to hear his back-up guitar work evolve between the lines of his vocals, but taken on their own merit, the guitar work in the background is deserving to be nothing less than an instrumental - they are that good, and they evolve and unfold, and tell their own story.
He's as good as they get. Nothing short of that.
I was 8 or 9 when Money for Nothing came out. I had 2 older sisters and parents who didn't really listen to music so I had only really been exposed to Kenny Rogers, Madonna and Cindi Lauper by that point. Money for Nothing was the coolest thing I'd ever heard in my life at the time. Throw in the MTV video and my southern baptist grandmother calling it devil music when she caught me watching it and I was hooked.
Music tells its own story and it tells a story in your own life which is one of the best things about it.
Yes, Knoffler (dire Straits) is a freakin' virtuoso on guitar.
Really, I listen to him all the time, and I'm amazed to hear his back-up guitar work evolve between the lines of his vocals, but taken on their own merit, the guitar work in the background is deserving to be nothing less than an instrumental - they are that good, and they evolve and unfold, and tell their own story.
He's as good as they get. Nothing short of that.
I was 8 or 9 when Money for Nothing came out. I had 2 older sisters and parents who didn't really listen to music so I had only really been exposed to Kenny Rogers, Madonna and Cindi Lauper by that point. Money for Nothing was the coolest thing I'd ever heard in my life at the time. Throw in the MTV video and my southern baptist grandmother calling it devil music when she caught me watching it and I was hooked.
Music tells its own story and it tells a story in your own life which is one of the best things about it.
I listened to them a little before that, but that was a biggy.
Now, often I stream (Apple Music subscription) them for my run workouts and get a lot of the songs I never had the chance to hear before. Streaming really filled out my exposure to worthy bands full bodies of work - and that is a major benefit of it.
You mgiht like a few of my favorites, and I just can't say enough good things about Wild West End, Lady Writer, and Antidote Blues, among others.
As for me, with two much older sisters, and it being the 60's, I had a ton of their beatles albums to listen to, and some really far out psychadelic stuff too. I liked it a lot right from the beginning and knew a lot of Beatles songs by heart.
I was 8 or 9 when Money for Nothing came out. I had 2 older sisters and parents who didn't really listen to music so I had only really been exposed to Kenny Rogers, Madonna and Cindi Lauper by that point. Money for Nothing was the coolest thing I'd ever heard in my life at the time. Throw in the MTV video and my southern baptist grandmother calling it devil music when she caught me watching it and I was hooked.
Music tells its own story and it tells a story in your own life which is one of the best things about it.
I listened to them a little before that, but that was a biggy.
Now, often I stream (Apple Music subscription) them for my run workouts and get a lot of the songs I never had the chance to hear before. Streaming really filled out my exposure to worthy bands full bodies of work - and that is a major benefit of it.
You mgiht like a few of my favorites, and I just can't say enough good things about Wild West End, Lady Writer, and Antidote Blues, among others.
As for me, with two much older sisters, and it being the 60's, I had a ton of their beatles albums to listen to, and some really far out psychadelic stuff too. I liked it a lot right from the beginning and knew a lot of Beatles songs by heart.
My favorite Knopfler song is "On Every Street".
I'm sure I've heard the songs you mention I just don't know them by name. I'll check them out.
Cobain was not a great guitarist. His live playing playing was downright sloppy at times. But he had a particular grain to his voice/scream. And that was the hook. People associate that voice with a particular time and place.
Sub Pop records, the blurry black and white photos of Michael Lavine, and constant MTV airplay all helped cement Cobain's place in 90s pop culture.
Cobain was not a great guitarist. His live playing playing was downright sloppy at times. But he had a particular grain to his voice/scream. And that was the hook. People associate that voice with a particular time and place.
Sub Pop records, the blurry black and white photos of Michael Lavine, and constant MTV airplay all helped cement Cobain's place in 90s pop culture.
I beg to differ. I think the reason for the wide gap between his enduring popularity and the lack of respect he’s getting here is that his guitar playing, vocals, and overall sound do not conform to the prototype of what a lot of people who are musically educated are conditioned and taught to think of as great music. For example, if we were having a discussion about great female vocalists, I would definitely include Janis Joplin and Stevie Nicks in the top tier. But a lot of people wouldn’t because their voices and singing styles don’t conform to the prototype of what a great female vocalist is supposed to sound like. But their singing can soar to artistic heights that are inaccessible to those who are/were great in a purely conventional sense (e.g. Whitney Houston). Or, as I remember Lindsey Buckingham saying: it’s all about getting the sound that you want; in comparison to that, whether you are great or not from a purely technical standpoint is irrelevant.
If you want to talk just pure talent (as per OP title of thread), I would look to Bob Mould of Husker Du as having some very strong credentials for that distinction.
Both Dave Grohl and Krist Novaselic agree with you.
Bob Mould is also still going strong and may have the longest career of being a legitimate musician/songwriter (not a nostalgia act).
This post was edited 6 minutes after it was posted.
You could argue that he was the most talented songwriter and I wouldn't complain, but there is no plausible argument for Cobain being most talented muscian. He was not an incredible guitar player.
Right. Just among his contemporaries Billy Corgan, Dimebag, Jerry Cantrell, Kim Thayil and John Frusciante were all better guitar players. I’m sure there are others that I am forgetting.
Okay, consensus here is that he simply wasn't that great of a guitarist. Perfectly adequate, though.
I think where he excelled is a composer.
Kind of like in the vein of a Bob Dylan. Really, that is not a bad analogy.
He became the voice of the 90s rock scene and achieved notoriety and popularity far exceeding any other of that time by a long shot.
Of course, this was indistinguishable from him as a performer, like it is for most band's frontmen, and he did that admirably well.
And lastly, he was a star and he carried that role also amazingly well - the talented, introverted, self-destructive rock and roller, in the vein of a ill-fated James Dean of his time.
Kurt Kobain took his life. Unfortunately, this mistakenly increased his popularity and made him some type of martyr for many disaffected youth. Not something to be proud of, as he ultimately became a cartoon depiction of a tortured and depressed musician. He was talented, but his talent was wasted because he chose to pursue the demons in his head.
I think the reason for the wide gap between his enduring popularity and the lack of respect he’s getting here is that his guitar playing, vocals, and overall sound do not conform to the prototype of what a lot of people who are musically educated are conditioned and taught to think of as great music.
His enduring popularity is because he died. Nirvana was fading by then, he'd have had a legacy on the level of Flea from Primus. Popular, but no mythos
Fine vocalist. Incredible guitarist and songwriter. Now there are plenty of exceptionally talented and accomplished musicians from the same generation whose music I am not familiar with. But of those I know, none seems to equal Cobain. Nirvana’s music holds up extremely well. It’s as good now as it was thirty years ago.
Gave us teenage smell and popularized Vans and flannel. He was so epic.
Cobain was not a great guitarist. His live playing playing was downright sloppy at times. But he had a particular grain to his voice/scream. And that was the hook. People associate that voice with a particular time and place.
Sub Pop records, the blurry black and white photos of Michael Lavine, and constant MTV airplay all helped cement Cobain's place in 90s pop culture.
I beg to differ. I think the reason for the wide gap between his enduring popularity and the lack of respect he’s getting here is that his guitar playing, vocals, and overall sound do not conform to the prototype of what a lot of people who are musically educated are conditioned and taught to think of as great music. For example, if we were having a discussion about great female vocalists, I would definitely include Janis Joplin and Stevie Nicks in the top tier. But a lot of people wouldn’t because their voices and singing styles don’t conform to the prototype of what a great female vocalist is supposed to sound like. But their singing can soar to artistic heights that are inaccessible to those who are/were great in a purely conventional sense (e.g. Whitney Houston). Or, as I remember Lindsey Buckingham saying: it’s all about getting the sound that you want; in comparison to that, whether you are great or not from a purely technical standpoint is irrelevant.
I saw an old youtube of a young and very coked-up Nicks singing Rhiannon live. Amazing performance. The intensity was severe.
And his whole band (Soundgarden, though there were others) were great musicians.
When the common psyche gets back to appreciating great rock, I bet they do a reconsideration of his talents and that of the band he was best known for.
Side 2 of nevermind is amazing. Quite a bit faster than side 1 which had the hits like smells, lithium etc. he is an amazing songwriter. Smells like teen spirit still sounds amazing more than 30 years on.
grunge is kinda weird in that most of the big bands sounded nothing like each other