Lydiard wins. Peter Snell in super shoes beats Jakob

Wetcoast wrote:

Not 100 per cent accurate.

You don't flip a switch to go from 100 miles per week of easy, steady, strong running to suddenly bounding up steep hills every day. And the same with going into the anaerobic phase.

Weekly fartleks in base keeps one from going anaerobic because they are done by feel, while staying in touch with speed and effort. Alactic strides for form and activating the neuromusclar system. And running over hilly environments during base phase is...well....hilly.

The hill phase also includes standard-style hill repetitions with a rectangle circuit, for ups, downs and recovery sections and strides sections. You can change the name of the phases, but Lydiard training is still Lydiard training. I get a kick out of coaches who say they know the Lydiard way and I talk to them for a while, and they have the basics, but get stuff quite wrong. Arthur said, "good and bad training can look the same on paper."

I was at a coaching conference several years ago. James Li from Arizona (Lawli Lalang and a few other athletes of note) got up and said, "I coach the Arthur Lydiard way." He wasn't prompted, he just said it. Then Alberto Salazar gets up after him and says, "I too coach the Arthur Lydiard way."

John Wesley Harding wrote:

Armstronglivs wrote:

You didn't write 1:42-high. Here is your comment:

"I can see him as a high 1: 1:43.xx 800m man".

It may have been a typo but it reads 1:43-high to me.

Snell was in the leather shoe era - as I was. He also set his mile and half mile records on grass in '62.

What you also don't take account of in talking about a 10 second improvement in 1500/mile times is the difference doping would make between 1962 - when it was non-existent in md running - and 2023, when it is a virtual norm at the top.

You were in the leather shoe era, Armstronglivs? So are you like 80?

There’s a consistent formatting glitch when you type a couple times with Xs and slashes like 600 guy did; it’s happened to me before and it’s annoying.

I do think that Snell is most likely a 1:42-high guy in modernity. I think it’s silly to say he wouldn’t be an elite 1500 runner; I don’t think he’d be beating Jakob in Diamond Leagues, but with Josh Kerr running 3:29.01, Azeddine Habz running 3:29.26 and Elliot Giles running 3:30.92, I have to believe Snell would be somewhere in that range if he were competing today. Marcin Lewandowski is a decent recent comparison, a strong, high mileage guy who spent most of his career as an 800 guy and then ran 3:30.42 and medaled in the 1500 at Worlds—but I think Snell would be better, particularly in the 800.

Not sure that I disagree with Snell placing 3rd if he were transported to the 1976 Olympic 1500, but there’s a chance he’d take the dub in peak form, and there’s no shame in losing to Walker and van Damme in that race.

objectiveobserver wrote:

Clean cheese wrote:

Fact, Peter Snell in super shoes would mop the floor with Jokob.

Lydiard training hasn’t been improved upon.

So you think Snell with now a days shoes would run more than 10 seconds faster in the 1500m and the mile? And it could very well be more than 12 seconds if Jakob continues improving the coming years (as I believe he will - barring illness and injury).

Snell was my first running hero and I have nothing bad to say about him or his career BUT.......

He was an amateur (as everyone else at the time) and even in his rather short career (from 1958 to 1965: age 19 to 26) he had periods where he didn´t train with continuity due to fatique and lack of motivation. He also experienced overload injuries.

Whereas Jakob has been training efficiently and seriously from the age of 8 with very few interruptions and has been able to concentrate fully on running from he finished high school in 2019 at the age of 18. He already signed a 6 years contract with Nike in early 2018 when still only 17.

Snell on the other hand needed to have a full time work to support a living and possibly suffered finacially when he traveled to other parts of the world to compete in championships or in other competitions arranged in Europe or in the US.

So no shame for Snell to not have the level of Jakob or of other current top runners (for example Nuguse and potentially Reynold, Laros and Myer).

runn wrote:

objectiveobserver wrote:

So you think Snell with now a days shoes would run more than 10 seconds faster in the 1500m and the mile? And it could very well be more than 12 seconds if Jakob continues improving the coming years (as I believe he will - barring illness and injury).

Snell was my first running hero and I have nothing bad to say about him or his career BUT.......

He was an amateur (as everyone else at the time) and even in his rather short career (from 1958 to 1965: age 19 to 26) he had periods where he didn´t train with continuity due to fatique and lack of motivation. He also experienced overload injuries.

Whereas Jakob has been training efficiently and seriously from the age of 8 with very few interruptions and has been able to concentrate fully on running from he finished high school in 2019 at the age of 18. He already signed a 6 years contract with Nike in early 2018 when still only 17.

Snell on the other hand needed to have a full time work to support a living and possibly suffered finacially when he traveled to other parts of the world to compete in championships or in other competitions arranged in Europe or in the US.

So no shame for Snell to not have the level of Jakob or of other current top runners (for example Nuguse and potentially Reynold, Laros and Myer).

Modern shoes to race and train in, make Snell a pro and put him on modern tracks to race and train on and we really can't figure out how much faster he's be.

I always wonder, even about myself- I started running at 12 in 1971- there was absolutely no technology for tracks, shoes, even clothing. No one truly understood what a good diet for a runner should look like- it was calories in that's about it.

objectiveobserver wrote:

runn wrote:

Modern shoes to race and train in, make Snell a pro and put him on modern tracks to race and train on and we really can't figure out how much faster he's be.

I always wonder, even about myself- I started running at 12 in 1971- there was absolutely no technology for tracks, shoes, even clothing. No one truly understood what a good diet for a runner should look like- it was calories in that's about it.

I agree. If Snell has trained from an early age as Jakob has done and gone professional at 17 he could be in the same league or perhaps even better.

But remember: Snell himself stated that he didn´t have a WONDERFUL talent, he just trained right.

ALSO: In high school Snell was beaten by some (few) contemporary runners but on the other hand, this would possibly not have happened if he started training (only) as a runner earlier.