Irrelevant. 15 minute miles is walking pace, whether I’ve done it or not.
Like I said walking 100 miles is an impressive feat. But, walking is still walking no matter how far you’ve gone.
But what if you ran a 7:30 pace for 1500m and then climbed 109m up a nearly vertical sand/gravel embankment which took 7:30 minutes; you'd hit the mile in around 15:00. Did you just walk a 15 minute mile?
Running/walking/staggering/stumbling is the essence of ultrarunning. It’s not really an athletic contest.
Can you define "athletic contest" in a way that doesn't include the definition of ultra-running?
"Using only the human body to cover distances 50km or longer in direct, timed competition against other participants who are following the same set of rules on the same course."
So I guess what I saw was only a clip on Instagram and they haven’t released a longer video yet. Here is last years attempt where he also broke the record and then ran faster this year I believe. It’s also just a clip but longer and shows more of the effort.
i'd like to let it be known i'm 100% not hating on this guy. in fact this is the sort of thing i am personally very good at. way way better at it than what i define as running. i imagine this lad would be quite handy on the bike, as my experience is that it's much more similar to cycling than what most think of when they hear the word running. vertical climbs like this are dominated by concentric muscle contractions. the eccentric conctraction that is so important with typical running is almost completely absent in this setting.
that all being said, in these videos it's difficult to tell with certainty, but it appears as if he always has one foot or one pole in contact with the ground. the ratio of ground contact time to airborne time is some number that is extremely high if not 1:0
typical elite sprinters have a ground contact time to airborne time ratio of about .6:1
typical elite distance runners ratio is about 1:1
jogging is often closer to 1.6+:1
and again as impressive as it may be aerobically and muscularly, it's very difficult for me to accept that moving 2.0-3.0mph is running.
Irrelevant. 15 minute miles is walking pace, whether I’ve done it or not.
Like I said walking 100 miles is an impressive feat. But, walking is still walking no matter how far you’ve gone.
If it's steep enough you can easily be runninga world class effort at 20-minute pace or slower. That's having both feet off the ground at the same point in the stride, which is not walking by definition. Even 30-minute pace can be running. You can tell just by looking at people running vs. walking up steep climbs. You can't tell by pace alone.
The record on the Incline is 20:36 pace, and that is running, not walking, by a world-class mountain runner.
You’ve moved the goalposts completely. That guy is doing that for 1.3 km, not 100miles. What one guy does for 1.3 km has zero relation to the vast majority of ultra competitors that walk 100 miles and call it running.
It's cute to have these track guys talk about stuff they can't comprehend. They might be a lot faster on a track for 15 minutes but they would poop in their pants if they would have to move towards a mountain pass in the middle of the night with a headlamp.
that all being said, in these videos it's difficult to tell with certainty, but it appears as if he always has one foot or one pole in contact with the ground. the ratio of ground contact time to airborne time is some number that is extremely high if not 1:0
typical elite sprinters have a ground contact time to airborne time ratio of about .6:1
typical elite distance runners ratio is about 1:1
jogging is often closer to 1.6+:1
and again as impressive as it may be aerobically and muscularly, it's very difficult for me to accept that moving 2.0-3.0mph is running.
Remi on that Fully VK looks like he might have either have a tiniest amount of flight time (looking frame by frame, but not many frames per second), or he's timing it so the tip of one toe just leaves the ground as the tip of the other just touches down. That's on a 50-60% grade. Whatever the case, it's clearly running form and not walking form.
Forget the numbers. You know what running looks like, and what walking looks like. The form and tempo are completely different.
Here are videos from the 2016 US Mountain Running Championships at Loon Mountain, about 6.7 mile race with a winning time of 49:11 (Joe Gray). Not my videos, but I was there that day watching too. I picked these videos because you can see these guys are either running or walking, or switching between the two. It's clear as day what is running and what is walking.
The video tells you the location (top of Lower Speakeasy), which happens to be a Strava segment (0.39 mile, 20% grade). Joe Gray didn't make public his Strava that day, but the Andy Wacker (6th on this day) has the KOM at 10:48/mi pace two years later. I think we can presume that the guys in the videos other than Joe Gray are 11-min/mi or slower to a lot slower that that going by the camera. Yet a lot of them are running, and running hard.
that all being said, in these videos it's difficult to tell with certainty, but it appears as if he always has one foot or one pole in contact with the ground. the ratio of ground contact time to airborne time is some number that is extremely high if not 1:0
typical elite sprinters have a ground contact time to airborne time ratio of about .6:1
typical elite distance runners ratio is about 1:1
jogging is often closer to 1.6+:1
and again as impressive as it may be aerobically and muscularly, it's very difficult for me to accept that moving 2.0-3.0mph is running.
Remi on that Fully VK looks like he might have either have a tiniest amount of flight time (looking frame by frame, but not many frames per second), or he's timing it so the tip of one toe just leaves the ground as the tip of the other just touches down. That's on a 50-60% grade. Whatever the case, it's clearly running form and not walking form.
Forget the numbers. You know what running looks like, and what walking looks like. The form and tempo are completely different.
Here are videos from the 2016 US Mountain Running Championships at Loon Mountain, about 6.7 mile race with a winning time of 49:11 (Joe Gray). Not my videos, but I was there that day watching too. I picked these videos because you can see these guys are either running or walking, or switching between the two. It's clear as day what is running and what is walking.
The video tells you the location (top of Lower Speakeasy), which happens to be a Strava segment (0.39 mile, 20% grade). Joe Gray didn't make public his Strava that day, but the Andy Wacker (6th on this day) has the KOM at 10:48/mi pace two years later. I think we can presume that the guys in the videos other than Joe Gray are 11-min/mi or slower to a lot slower that that going by the camera. Yet a lot of them are running, and running hard.
Remi on that Fully VK looks like he might have either have a tiniest amount of flight time (looking frame by frame, but not many frames per second), or he's timing it so the tip of one toe just leaves the ground as the tip of the other just touches down. That's on a 50-60% grade. Whatever the case, it's clearly running form and not walking form.
Forget the numbers. You know what running looks like, and what walking looks like. The form and tempo are completely different.
Here are videos from the 2016 US Mountain Running Championships at Loon Mountain, about 6.7 mile race with a winning time of 49:11 (Joe Gray). Not my videos, but I was there that day watching too. I picked these videos because you can see these guys are either running or walking, or switching between the two. It's clear as day what is running and what is walking.
The video tells you the location (top of Lower Speakeasy), which happens to be a Strava segment (0.39 mile, 20% grade). Joe Gray didn't make public his Strava that day, but the Andy Wacker (6th on this day) has the KOM at 10:48/mi pace two years later. I think we can presume that the guys in the videos other than Joe Gray are 11-min/mi or slower to a lot slower that that going by the camera. Yet a lot of them are running, and running hard.
Again moving the goalposts. Linking footage from a 6.7 mile race proves nothing about ultra competition. A 6.7 mile race isn’t an ultra competition.
Not moving goalposts. You are the one that said 15 minute miles must be walking. I'm responding to that. I'm pointing out that 15 minute miles can easily be running depending on how steep a hill is. Most ultras have climbs. At some point, a runner might chose to walk a hill, a different runner (or the same runner at a different point) might run the hill. In a 6.7 mile race, they might try to stay running even at 20-30 minutes per mile. In an ultra, they probably start walking sooner on the climbs, but that still might be 15 min/mi pace.
I'm not really an ultra runner (done one or two only), but I've run mountain races in the past, and more importantly run long days up to about 7 hours in the mountains for fun/training. Until recent years, I've be the type to run everything I can as long as it's possible to run. So, yeah, 2mph probably on some steep mountain climbs. . . definitively running. It's just a different tempo and form than walking the same pace. I and anyone watching can tell the difference between running and walking form, even at 2 mph.
Again moving the goalposts. Linking footage from a 6.7 mile race proves nothing about ultra competition. A 6.7 mile race isn’t an ultra competition.
Not moving goalposts. You are the one that said 15 minute miles must be walking. I'm responding to that. I'm pointing out that 15 minute miles can easily be running depending on how steep a hill is. Most ultras have climbs. At some point, a runner might chose to walk a hill, a different runner (or the same runner at a different point) might run the hill. In a 6.7 mile race, they might try to stay running even at 20-30 minutes per mile. In an ultra, they probably start walking sooner on the climbs, but that still might be 15 min/mi pace.
I'm not really an ultra runner (done one or two only), but I've run mountain races in the past, and more importantly run long days up to about 7 hours in the mountains for fun/training. Until recent years, I've be the type to run everything I can as long as it's possible to run. So, yeah, 2mph probably on some steep mountain climbs. . . definitively running. It's just a different tempo and form than walking the same pace. I and anyone watching can tell the difference between running and walking form, even at 2 mph.
Yes, but most aren’t 100 miles of up hill mountain running. And, most of the competitors aren’t the very best of the sport that you keep referencing.
In my original post I said most of the competitors. I didn’t say all of the competitors. I believe some of them are running. I also believe most of them are walking.
* I've had people say to me at mountain races or just seeing me in the mountains say, "I can't believe you ran that. . ." I didn't have to tell them I was running. The fact that I was still running while most others were powerhiking in races or, outside races, that I was running a super steep section, made them to vocalize the obvious (that I was running and not walking) to me.
(Not claiming to be a better runner because of my old preference to not walk as much as possible in the mountains. I've learned the benefits of powerwalking the steeps in recent years.)
Not moving goalposts. You are the one that said 15 minute miles must be walking. I'm responding to that. I'm pointing out that 15 minute miles can easily be running depending on how steep a hill is. Most ultras have climbs. At some point, a runner might chose to walk a hill, a different runner (or the same runner at a different point) might run the hill. In a 6.7 mile race, they might try to stay running even at 20-30 minutes per mile. In an ultra, they probably start walking sooner on the climbs, but that still might be 15 min/mi pace.
I'm not really an ultra runner (done one or two only), but I've run mountain races in the past, and more importantly run long days up to about 7 hours in the mountains for fun/training. Until recent years, I've be the type to run everything I can as long as it's possible to run. So, yeah, 2mph probably on some steep mountain climbs. . . definitively running. It's just a different tempo and form than walking the same pace. I and anyone watching can tell the difference between running and walking form, even at 2 mph.
Yes, but most aren’t 100 miles of up hill mountain running. And, most of the competitors aren’t the very best of the sport that you keep referencing.
In my original post I said most of the competitors. I didn’t say all of the competitors. I believe some of them are running. I also believe most of them are walking.
If they are finishing a trail 100 in under 24 hours, most of the ground covered is going to be running.
My trail run yesterday was 14 min/miles and only 10 miles. It was muddy and slippery, and I should have used shoes with deeper lugs. I ran easy. Like I said, not really an ultra guy, but if I were going 100 miles, that would have been my pace. I didn't really walk any parts other than to not fall. This route is one of my favorites, I've done it hundreds of times, with the fastest time taking about half the time (in better conditions). So 14 minute miles and 98% running probably.
Yes. And for that reason I just can't respect it. I know it's very hard but there has to some sense of speed. Walk, jog, rest, sit down, snack, etc.
98% of the posters on this message board wouldn’t be able to last 2hrs at Killian or Jim’s pace in a mountain ultra, and they are doing it for 15-20hrs. Is that not speedy enough for you?
I would pack them up in a 1500m. Congratulations on being good at crawling up a hill.
Ultra events are the backstroke of running. Not because you have to use some inferior "stroke" to move forward, but because after 100 miles or whatever you are both insane and trying to move forward with any means necessary.
I have a friend who loves to talk about how she's a die hard ultra runner and she completes them (and her marathons) at 15:00 per mile or slower.
She's walking.
TBH- a marathon in 6 hours is no more difficult than a person who works on their feet for 6-8 hours.
A lot of today's ultrarunners are very annoying. The critics here are absolutely right about them. But just like in a Marathon where there are sub 2:10 runners, 2:30, 3:00, 4:00 runners and then there are 6-8 hour walkers. The last group is the annoying one.
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