Just stop digging in. You are wrong. You started off as an over the top J Ryun fanboy, now you are making false statements. Amphetamines were available with little to no testing. Amphetamines were widely used openly by many pro athletes in numerous sports to 35 or 40 years ago. Buckets of amphetamines in locker rooms.
Ryun competed over 55 years ago.i
And as I and other have demonstrated, they were widely used 55 and more years ago.
Ryun's solo effort was insane...an incredible feat!
BUT again, you're assuming Ryun had 3:25 (or all-time) physical talent. And other runners have essentially solo'd faster before.
We can't say for sure he didn't, but not likely. He had a ceiling like everyone does, and three people have only run 3:26.
Jesse Owens set three world records and tied another, all in less than an hour, at the 1935 Big Ten track meet in Ann Arbor, Michigan—a feat that has never been equaled.
Do you then believe Jesse Owens could have run faster than Usain Bolt if he was competing when Bolt was with same technology?
A key difference is Jesse Owens’ 10.2 100 PB isn’t world class anymore. It’s 6 percent slower than the current WR. Ryun’s 3:33.1 is still world class. It’s only 3 percent slower than the current WR, and it’s better than the automatic qualifier of 3:34.20 for this year’s world championships! And he ran that time 56 years ago!
I find it difficult to believe that Ryun maxed out his potential at age 20 competing as an amateur in the 1960s.
My goodness the man was more talented than Jakob. Would Ryun run 3:25 with the tracks and shoes?
I know there will never be an answer and there is a group of Letsrun posters who see Ryun as immortal, but I don't think he'd be the best ever. He peaked early and was a true physical freak talent. He "looked" stronger and more fit than most other 1500m runners. When I first saw Alan Webb he reminded me of images I'd seen of Ryun.
Alan Webb, to me, was the late 1990's / early 2000's version of Jim Ryun. Freak talent. Muscular. Super good leg speed. Hard worker. Webb ran 3:30 and 3:46 (mile) and 1:43, all in a month span and never found that again. You could easily argue he peaked early as well. He was very much like Ryun and so, maybe Ryun could have been as fast +/- as Webb was.
There are no white boy USA runners who have ever run faster than 3:30. Why would Ryun suddenly be the exception? If you think Ryun is more talented than jakob, do you think Alan Webb is more talented than Jakob Ingebrigsten? He might be physically, but that's not all is takes to be the best.
Kip Keino broke the 3,000m WR by 6 seconds and broke the 5,000m WR as well. He beat Ryun by 20 meters in the 1968 Oly final...biggest winning margin ever.
Are people arguing Keino would be better than Bekele and Cheptegei?! Or the 3,000m WR holder? I doubt it.
Another thing hard to quantify is that Ryun didn't think anyone could run as fast as Keino did in Mexico City to win the gold medal. He thought a slower time would win. Perhaps this was a mental limitation that prevented him from setting higher goals.
Ryun ran 3:51. Obviously, that'd be faster on modern tracks and with better shoes. So, safe to say he'd have been under 3:50 for the mile. I don't find it difficult to make an argument that would have happened. Today, running 3:50/51 is fairly common. Even Galen Rupp did it. There are guys running 3:49 who aren't sniffing 3:25 in the 1500m. Even if Ryun ran 3:47-48, I don't think he's faster than the everyone else. Webb wasn't and he ran 3:46 and 1:43 in the same month.
El G was the best and most consistent 1500m runner ever, and no one really comes close.
Herb Elliott was the most consistent 1500m runner ever. He never lost a 1500m as a senior.
Have you been driving from library to library giving yourself up arrows?
You should know amphetamine use was widespread during Ryun era. Are you an English professor or attorney? Amphetamines were widely available in pro locker rooms UP TO 35 to 40 years ago.
Yep, below is the link to a well-known SI article that came out in 1960 entitled "Our Drug Happy Athletes". Here is one interesting excerpt from the article:
"In terms of records, these figures indicate that amphetamines could take 3.6 seconds off the time of a four-minute miler."
Again, this was an article from 1960. For those you claim there was no drug use in that era please state your age and when you competed. If you didn't actually compete in the 1960s you have no real basis for making a claim about the use of drugs.
I kind of doubt Ryun had 3:25 or even 3:26 ability. I also doubt that the people who've run 3:26 have that ability if they'd run under the conditions Ryun did. As to Owens running as fast as Bolt if he'd had the same technology, sure, I don't see why not. The other thing about these discussions is that they're always bringing people from the past into the present. There have always been athletes with the same physiology as people have today. If you sent a Bolt or an Ingebrigsen back in time I'd be amazed if they ran anything close to their present day times.
Have you been driving from library to library giving yourself up arrows?
You should know amphetamine use was widespread during Ryun era. Are you an English professor or attorney? Amphetamines were widely available in pro locker rooms UP TO 35 to 40 years ago.
Floyd Patterson has admitted that he used steroids to put on muscles before the second title fight against Johansson in 1960.
My goodness the man was more talented than Jakob. Would Ryun run 3:25 with the tracks and shoes?
Another thing hard to quantify is that Ryun didn't think anyone could run as fast as Keino did in Mexico City to win the gold medal. He thought a slower time would win. Perhaps this was a mental limitation that prevented him from setting higher goals.
This is flawed thinking. Ryun didn't think anyone would run that fast to win at 7300 feet elevation. Ryun had already run almost 2 seconds faster than Keino's time in MC when he set the WR record the year before - while beating Keino by almost 30m. He beat Keino convincingly in their 2 meetings the year prior.
It didn't have anything to do with mental limitations. Ryun was faster than Keino. He just wasn't altitude trained and underestimated how much of an advantage Keino's adaption to altitude would provide.
Have you been driving from library to library giving yourself up arrows?
You should know amphetamine use was widespread during Ryun era. Are you an English professor or attorney? Amphetamines were widely available in pro locker rooms UP TO 35 to 40 years ago.
Floyd Patterson has admitted that he used steroids to put on muscles before the second title fight against Johansson in 1960.
Bit of a difference between a high school track athlete in the 1960's and a guy fighting to reclaim the most lucrative title in professional sport.
But it's fitting you bring up boxing. In boxing forums you don't have these discussions. Well you do, but it's a given by everybody that the top guys from the 60's and even the 20's would compete with or even dominate the guys of today.
Whereas here, it's a joke to consider that Zatopek or Nurmi could compete today. As Ryun's generation fades from history, it will happen to him too. Then Walker, Ovett, Coe, Cram, Aouita...
It's just as much a disservice to champions and record holders of the past to say they wouldn't be running world records today if they had the advantages of current and recent record holders have.
* Training on cinder is easier on the body than training on synthetic tracks. People assuming Ryun would be faster today are assuming he would not suffer more injuries today.
* Ryun was fastest on a cinder track.
* If by accident of birth, Ryun was not born in an English speaking country, Ryun would have likely been groomed as an 800m specialist from age 12 to age 27.
I would bet against Ryun having any world records. He wouldn't be any faster than J Ingebrigtsen is today, 1500m due to Ryun's size. If J Ingebrigtsen and Ryun raced, 1500m, championship format, who knows? If J Ingebrigtsen and Ryun raced 1500m with pacers and lights, I doubt Ryun could beat J Ingebrigtsen.
You have to be the dumbest poster on LetsRun - quite an achievement.
In my country there’s a saying (hard to translate): “The one who call other the dumbest is the dumbest!” But the worst is always the lack of giving any reasons for one’s opinion (other being dumb -because sometimes we all are, but what about pointing to why!)
My goodness the man was more talented than Jakob. Would Ryun run 3:25 with the tracks and shoes?
I know there will never be an answer and there is a group of Letsrun posters who see Ryun as immortal, but I don't think he'd be the best ever. He peaked early and was a true physical freak talent. He "looked" stronger and more fit than most other 1500m runners. When I first saw Alan Webb he reminded me of images I'd seen of Ryun.
Alan Webb, to me, was the late 1990's / early 2000's version of Jim Ryun. Freak talent. Muscular. Super good leg speed. Hard worker. Webb ran 3:30 and 3:46 (mile) and 1:43, all in a month span and never found that again. You could easily argue he peaked early as well. He was very much like Ryun and so, maybe Ryun could have been as fast +/- as Webb was.
There are no white boy USA runners who have ever run faster than 3:30. Why would Ryun suddenly be the exception? If you think Ryun is more talented than jakob, do you think Alan Webb is more talented than Jakob Ingebrigsten? He might be physically, but that's not all is takes to be the best.
Kip Keino broke the 3,000m WR by 6 seconds and broke the 5,000m WR as well. He beat Ryun by 20 meters in the 1968 Oly final...biggest winning margin ever.
Are people arguing Keino would be better than Bekele and Cheptegei?! Or the 3,000m WR holder? I doubt it.
Another thing hard to quantify is that Ryun didn't think anyone could run as fast as Keino did in Mexico City to win the gold medal. He thought a slower time would win. Perhaps this was a mental limitation that prevented him from setting higher goals.
Ryun ran 3:51. Obviously, that'd be faster on modern tracks and with better shoes. So, safe to say he'd have been under 3:50 for the mile. I don't find it difficult to make an argument that would have happened. Today, running 3:50/51 is fairly common. Even Galen Rupp did it. There are guys running 3:49 who aren't sniffing 3:25 in the 1500m. Even if Ryun ran 3:47-48, I don't think he's faster than the everyone else. Webb wasn't and he ran 3:46 and 1:43 in the same month.
El G was the best and most consistent 1500m runner ever, and no one really comes close.
I like your reasoning in this post.. But in the Mexico ex. about Ryun vs Keino I think you are a little unfair to the former, because the altitude was a clear disadvantage to Ryun (and a lot of others)…
Tom Simpson the professional cycling died 56 years ago of amphetamine overdose. My father used them in boxing in the 1950s.
Man -I love your fact striking support to the 600 guy as something against the many unfair down arrows he has gotten in this thread! (And I myself prefer writing opposed to arrows that can be manipulative and cloudy and in a way somewhat cowardly..!)
My goodness the man was more talented than Jakob. Would Ryun run 3:25 with the tracks and shoes?
We need to compare athletes against the athletes of their era to be accurate. But for fun, we can consider that advantages and disadvantages of running in a particular era. Jim Ryun had lots of failure in other sports and even got cut by the track & field team as a freshman because the longest distance was the 400 and he was not fast enough. What if he went to a smaller school than Wichita East? Perhaps he winds up being a basketball player or in one of the many other sports available these days. Maybe he becomes a computer nerd and does not even become an athlete.
If he starts cross country running as a sophomore then of course he becomes one of the all-time greats along with Peter Snell, Paavo Nurmi, Kip Keino, and all the rest!
on a modern synthetic track. However, he probably wouldn't be racing at Dusseldorf nowadays.
You're injecting the same thing that kenyans that get banned for if you think that Ryun would've ran that. I think he certainly could've gone 1:42/1:43 with shoe technology and tracks we have. But, Seb Coe dropped 1:41 less than a decade after he retired. As for 1500m, If the stars aligned...I definitely think he could have been more talented than Yared Nuguse (Don't know about Lagat) but I could've seen him basically how Jakob/Kerr are. 3:27/3:28. World Record is a huge stretch.
Also, turn things around and ask what would Jakob run if you sent him back to the '60s with cinder tracks, non-cushioned shoes, and in particular, the insane interval training Ryun did (40x440) that ground runners up wholesale? Jakob would be injured and out of running, IMO. He certainly wouldn't run anything close to 3:51. Ryun was a physical beast who ran world records despite the above, not because of them.
He didn't have the doping advantages that runners clearly have today. That's the biggest difference.
Your post is silly. Not the same drugs but there were drugs but without testing. I'm not accusing him. I don't accuse anyone without evidence and I am not going to clear anyone just because.
You're always accusing Coe and just about every Brit of doping on no evidence whatsoever or for some ridiculously stupid reason (Coe's father was not an elite athlete etc.).
Help us build the best running shoe review site for a chance to win a LetsRun t-shirt.Help us build the best running shoe review site for a chance to win one of 10 LetsRun t-shirts.