Simeon Birnbaum - HS Distance G.O.A.T

High School Running Distance

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2 years ago 06/19/2023 1:54pm EDT

re: freekiprop

Very good hs distance runner for sure.

GOAT? No way. Until yesterday I wasn't even sure he was the best hs miler this year.

And while I usually love race celebrations I wasn't a big fan of the shush yesterday as I felt he did it to Leo Young. Don't disrespect your competitors.

But I became a fan of Birnbaum from this in the Eugene Register Guard:

Not everyone appreciated the gesture. A protest was filed and Birnbaum said he was scolded by officials after the race.
“They talked about DQing me,” Birnbaum said. “People weren’t very happy about it but I told them, alright, DQ me. I honestly don’t care. It doesn’t change anything. If I’m DQed I still know I won. They were like, ‘You’re going to learn, kid.’”

For whatever reason I just loved his response even if in this instance I didn't like his gesture.

2 years ago 06/19/2023 2:02pm EDT

re: John Wesley Harding

John Wesley Harding wrote:
Suppressed minorities wrote:
Ryun's performance that day was still the best ever by a high school miler - and it's not really even close.
Definitely.
How would you come down on Ryun vs. Jakob as a u18/u20? I imagine we’d see some divisiveness on that one.

Actually an interesting comparison, I’d take Jakob as a U18 and Ryun as a U20, but it’s a much better comparison than Ryun to any US teenager

2 years ago 06/19/2023 2:07pm EDT

re: A_K

A_K wrote:
Simeon Birnbaum, future Oregon Duck, just secured his legacy as the greatest High School distance (track) runner in history. Agree or no?
3:57.53 - 1 Mile - #4 in HS History
3:37.93 - 1500m - #2 in HS History
8:34.10 - 3200m - #2 in HS History
8:34.10 - 2 Mile - #2 in HS History
HOKA Festival of Miles High School Boys Championship Mile Winner (3:57.53)
Nike Outdoor Nationals 1 Mile Champion (4:02.22) - Great HS Mile Field Ever Assembled
Arcadia Invitational 3200 Champion (8:34.10)

I said this in other posts about Colin Sahlman and I’ll say it here- these guys are not “generational talents”, they’re simply the best runners in their class (which is awesome!).

The new schedules with all of these national meets and easy accessibility to pro meets allows them so many opportunities for exceptional times and they’re taking advantage of it. The coaching has continued to improve because of Strava and other factors and finally, the spikes are giving them up to 1 second per lap.

Take just the spikes away and they’re in the range that the best runners had been every year- 4:00/8:40.

Doesn’t mean they’re not very very good and cannot become a finalist on the world level, but IMO it does mean that they’re not statisically better than most other no1 guys.

webb, Jim Ryun, Ritz, German and a few others- those guys were on another level.

2 years ago 06/19/2023 2:14pm EDT

re: Hiney Licker

You can tell that Birnbaum has more pro potential. His body still looks like it is in adolescence and when it fills out, he is going to be a monster. Lex and Leo simply have less athletic builds. Im sure they will be talented runners but their ceiling is a lot lower than someone like Birnbaum.

Even Connor Burns has a more athletic build, similar to Ollie Hoare with very broad shoulders and long arms.

Nico has a more athletic build than either of his younger brothers and he has been struggling to prove himself as a top talent in the NCAA.

2 years ago 06/19/2023 2:35pm EDT

re: GOATbaum

GOATbaum wrote:
You can tell that Birnbaum has more pro potential. His body still looks like it is in adolescence and when it fills out, he is going to be a monster. Lex and Leo simply have less athletic builds. Im sure they will be talented runners but their ceiling is a lot lower than someone like Birnbaum.
Even Connor Burns has a more athletic build, similar to Ollie Hoare with very broad shoulders and long arms.
Nico has a more athletic build than either of his younger brothers and he has been struggling to prove himself as a top talent in the NCAA.

You can’t tell anything by their build. You can speculate, if you want. Chris Solinsky looked like a linebacker as a HS kid but went on to dominate in the ncaa and as a US pro.

Im sure there are tons of scrawny HS studs who looked like they hadn’t hit puberty who didn’t then become world beaters.

2 years ago 06/19/2023 2:39pm EDT

re: A_K

A_K wrote:
Simeon Birnbaum, future Oregon Duck, just secured his legacy as the greatest High School distance (track) runner in history. Agree or no?
3:57.53 - 1 Mile - #4 in HS History
3:37.93 - 1500m - #2 in HS History
8:34.10 - 3200m - #2 in HS History
8:34.10 - 2 Mile - #2 in HS History
HOKA Festival of Miles High School Boys Championship Mile Winner (3:57.53)
Nike Outdoor Nationals 1 Mile Champion (4:02.22) - Great HS Mile Field Ever Assembled
Arcadia Invitational 3200 Champion (8:34.10)

Recency bias is an awful thing.

Nearly 60 years ago, Jim Ryun ran faster than Birnbaum has run, came within 1.5 seconds of the World Record, and beat the then World Record holder and possibly the greatest middle distance runner in history (Peter Snell). Ryun made the Olympic Team after his Junior Year track season.

2 years ago 06/19/2023 3:26pm EDT

re: A_K

A_K wrote:
Think Again wrote:
He's very good. But number one? No.
Who was ever more diverse than Simeon?

Alan Webb, Colin Sahlman, Drew Hunter, Gerry Lindgren

This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.

2 years ago 06/19/2023 3:41pm EDT

re: GOATbaum

GOATbaum wrote:
You can tell that Birnbaum has more pro potential. His body still looks like it is in adolescence and when it fills out, he is going to be a monster. Lex and Leo simply have less athletic builds. Im sure they will be talented runners but their ceiling is a lot lower than someone like Birnbaum.
Even Connor Burns has a more athletic build, similar to Ollie Hoare with very broad shoulders and long arms.
Nico has a more athletic build than either of his younger brothers and he has been struggling to prove himself as a top talent in the NCAA.

Did Asbel Kiprop have an athletic build? Did Ritz? An athletic build doesn't make someone a good distance runner.

2 years ago 06/19/2023 4:03pm EDT

re: Suppressed minorities

Suppressed minorities wrote:
John Wesley Harding wrote:
Times have changed, the sport has evolved. Peter Snell wasn’t a professional athlete and he wasn’t in his best form in 1965, and even accounting for different eras I think it would be far more remarkable for a high schooler to run 3:28.0 or 3:45.0 now than 3:55.3 in 1965. If someone breaks 3:50 and makes the U.S. team we can open the discussion.
Snell might not have been in his best form for that race but Ryun also beat the reigning Olympic Silver medalist (Josef Odložil) and the American record holder, Jim Grelle, who had set the record less than 2 weeks before. In fact, Ryun set a new AR in that race.
Ryun's performance that day was still the best ever by a high school miler - and it's not really even close.

What was perhaps most impressive about Ryun's race was not even the time but the way he competed. Webb, Kessler and Sahlman ran with the pack or in the back and were pulled to fast times.

Ryun went for the win. He made a strong move with around 300 to go and held off Snell and Grelle down the stretch. It was a gutsy race.

2 years ago 06/19/2023 4:12pm EDT

re: Ackley

Ackley wrote:
A_K wrote:
Simeon Birnbaum, future Oregon Duck, just secured his legacy as the greatest High School distance (track) runner in history. Agree or no?
3:57.53 - 1 Mile - #4 in HS History
3:37.93 - 1500m - #2 in HS History
8:34.10 - 3200m - #2 in HS History
8:34.10 - 2 Mile - #2 in HS History
HOKA Festival of Miles High School Boys Championship Mile Winner (3:57.53)
Nike Outdoor Nationals 1 Mile Champion (4:02.22) - Great HS Mile Field Ever Assembled
Arcadia Invitational 3200 Champion (8:34.10)
Recency bias is an awful thing.
Nearly 60 years ago, Jim Ryun ran faster than Birnbaum has run, came within 1.5 seconds of the World Record, and beat the then World Record holder and possibly the greatest middle distance runner in history (Peter Snell). Ryun made the Olympic Team after his Junior Year track season.

Exactly... recency bias. Simeon has had an incredible few weeks, but before June would have anyone said anything about him (in an all-time sense) other than he won a great race at Arcadia and was part of a great, current group?

He deserves props for what he's done, especially for excellence against great comp in a 5-day span, and the potential it shows. But as has been said, at best it moves him in the top 5-10 all-time. He should be a strong contender for Athlete of the Year, along with the sprinter Asinga.

2 years ago 06/19/2023 4:44pm EDT

re: A_K

I’m willing to say he just completed the best week for a prep runner in history but no way he’s close to GOAT, might crack the top ten. If he had won XC Nats you could argue he’s the best runner of this generation but even that’d be a stretch. I’d love to see him in a fast 5k to back that up.

2 years ago 06/19/2023 5:33pm EDT

re: vvvcvb

vvvcvb wrote:
GOATbaum wrote:
You can tell that Birnbaum has more pro potential. His body still looks like it is in adolescence and when it fills out, he is going to be a monster. Lex and Leo simply have less athletic builds. Im sure they will be talented runners but their ceiling is a lot lower than someone like Birnbaum.
Even Connor Burns has a more athletic build, similar to Ollie Hoare with very broad shoulders and long arms.
Nico has a more athletic build than either of his younger brothers and he has been struggling to prove himself as a top talent in the NCAA.
Did Asbel Kiprop have an athletic build? Did Ritz? An athletic build doesn't make someone a good distance runner.

Birnbaum will surpass them both

2 years ago 06/19/2023 5:51pm EDT

re: GOATbaum

I am waiting for King to chime in. He has a good history going back to Pre and Virgin.

2 years ago 06/19/2023 6:47pm EDT

re: A_K

He ran 8:34.10 for 3200m AND for 2 miles? Thought it was just for 2 miles

2 years ago 06/19/2023 7:14pm EDT

re: Hiney Licker

Hiney Licker wrote:
I said this in other posts about Colin Sahlman and I’ll say it here- these guys are not “generational talents”, they’re simply the best runners in their class (which is awesome!).
The new schedules with all of these national meets and easy accessibility to pro meets allows them so many opportunities for exceptional times and they’re taking advantage of it. The coaching has continued to improve because of Strava and other factors and finally, the spikes are giving them up to 1 second per lap.
Take just the spikes away and they’re in the range that the best runners had been every year- 4:00/8:40.
Doesn’t mean they’re not very very good and cannot become a finalist on the world level, but IMO it does mean that they’re not statisically better than most other no1 guys.
webb, Jim Ryun, Ritz, German and a few others- those guys were on another level.

Will you people stop with this nonsense about the superspikes being worth 4 seconds over a mile already? Or should we update Jakob Ingebrigtsen's 1500m PR to 3:31.95?

2 years ago 06/19/2023 8:42pm EDT

re: Peach Pit

Peach Pit wrote:
Suppressed minorities wrote:
Snell might not have been in his best form for that race but Ryun also beat the reigning Olympic Silver medalist (Josef Odložil) and the American record holder, Jim Grelle, who had set the record less than 2 weeks before. In fact, Ryun set a new AR in that race.
Ryun's performance that day was still the best ever by a high school miler - and it's not really even close.
Just curious, do you think Jakob's 3:31 at 18 was more impressive than Ryun's 3:55? I'd put Jakob's performance way above Ryun's, which I rank right above/below Kessler's 3:34 depending on the argument I'm making.
The only goat claim Birnbaum can make is having the best week of any HSer ever. That wasn't something I'd ever thought about until like 2 days ago, but it was mad impressive lol. Whenever one of these threads pop up, all the Ryun stans go flocking to bring him up, and every time it happens, I'm surprised at how good he was. The 1960s are practically prehistory, but he was out here running 3:55 ftw.

When Ryun ran 3:55, the world record was 3:53.6 (give or take a couple of tenths), so he was within 1.5 seconds of the world record, and he did it beating the reigning Olympic champion and setting a U.S. record in the US national championships. When Kessler ran 3:34, the world record was 8 second faster, and he ran his time in a meaningless paced race. There's no comparison. I would rate Ryun' s performance above Jakob's as well, but that's much closer.

2 years ago 06/19/2023 8:52pm EDT

re: Ruxton Towers XC

Ruxton Towers XC wrote:
I say this on every thread... define your terms first and then find the person to fit the description. Instead, most people pick their favorite runner (or belief in general) and then work backward to "prove" their guy is the best.
Define "HS Distance GOAT" and after you've done that, check to see if Jim Ryun or Gerry Lindgen or Birnbaum or whoever fits your description.
Here is my definition: The HS GOAT is the runner with the best range, the times closest to the elites of the sport (not just other high schoolers), HS records, and a lot of big-time victories. If you have all four of those on your resume, then you can be in the GOAT conversation.
Personally, I think Birnbaum is close. At the moment, he is the best of this generation, but historically there are guys in every event who were better than him.
If there was HS Olympics and all these guys did all the events, Birnbaum might have a lot of silvers and bronzes but probably no golds. Here are guys that could beat him if they all were running at their peak like Birnbaum is right now. This is not a short list, so I don't think you can say SB is the GOAT:
800 - Granville, Flatt, Sumner, Kersh, Brazier
1500 - Ryun, Webb, Kessler
Mile - Ryun, Webb, Kessler, Colin Sahlman, Leo Young
3000 - Nico Young, Lex Young, Drew Hunter, German Fernandez
2M - Lukas V., German F., Colin Sahlman
5000 - Lex Young, Connor Burns, Galen Rupp, Gerry Lindgren
XC - Ritzenheim, Grant Fisher, Cheserek, Solinsky, Goucher, Kennedy, Hall, Sahlman, Lex, Leo

Lindgren would beat him at 3000/2 miles as well. He ran 8:40 INDOORS as a high schooler in 1964 on a way slower track, without super (or even very good) shoes, etc -- probably worth sub 8:30 today. He finished 2nd in the race to world record holder Ron Clarke, after setting the pace much of the way. That's "...times closest to the elites of the sport". I've tried very hard to find out more about the track, at the San Francisco Cow Palace, and have never been able to find clear info). And his range went from one mile (second all-time when he left HS) to 10,000.

2 years ago 06/19/2023 9:21pm EDT

re: GOATbaum

GOATbaum wrote:
You can tell that Birnbaum has more pro potential. His body still looks like it is in adolescence and when it fills out, he is going to be a monster. Lex and Leo simply have less athletic builds. Im sure they will be talented runners but their ceiling is a lot lower than someone like Birnbaum.
Even Connor Burns has a more athletic build, similar to Ollie Hoare with very broad shoulders and long arms.
Nico has a more athletic build than either of his younger brothers and he has been struggling to prove himself as a top talent in the NCAA.

8 time all american and 3rd fastest collegian ever over 5k btw

2 years ago 06/19/2023 9:32pm EDT

re: Track Bro

Track Bro wrote:
If we add their 1 mile and 2 mile times, LV is faster. Without super shoes.

I have my doubts about supershoes being the culprit…I think the real cheating machine is the wavelights that give perfect confidence to whoever follows them..two examples are Kipyegon and Ingebrigstens records, I bet they would be much slower without guaranteed perfect pacing

2 years ago 06/19/2023 10:12pm EDT

re: A_K

YouTube.com

Simeon Birnbaum is the KING of High School Running

the runner

Simeon Bierbaum is the king of High School Running, he has wicked prs in every event he races and goes for the win in every race. Recently hes been on a stre...

Video:www.youtube.com/watch?v=AewNsImjVsE

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